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Greatness

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There are a lot of variables before anyone can predict a Mayo v Dublin final in 2019...mostly on our side.

Dublin will sstroll into another final next year but for us a lot will depend on who the new manager is, what players stay on and what impact new faces can show.

Kerry, Tyrone, Galway and Monaghan will all be aiming to get to a final next year too.

If Mayo managed to win the All Ireland it wouldn't be about ending the 5 in a row but rather winning it for ourselves.....

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11227 - 14/09/2018 20:25:34    2141793

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I see the great Ollie Campbell rang Dr. David Hickey during this years AI final and told him it was like watching the All Blacks. Hickey also reckons that it will be Kildare that'll be challenging us in the next few years as opposed to Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, I'll set that cat among the pigeons for ye :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8585 - 14/09/2018 20:31:52    2141796

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The standard of rival teams is hopeless imo. I think that puts a huge qualification on Dublin's 'greatness'. For example, both Tyrone & Galway fans realise that their current 'outfits' are seriously mediocre, compared to their silverware winning sides of the last 20 years. Sadly, Galway & Tyrone were two of the biggest rivals out there in 2018. Miles off Dublin, which means every other team is miles off them too. Mayo were a serious rival 2011-2017, but are 'finished' for the moment, as a rival to Dublin at least. The countrywide standard of intercounty football team is so poor currently that it's impossible to ascertain whether Dublin are great or not. They could be just the best of a bad lot really."
Eh no. This Dublin panel sent the greatest Tyrone team of all time to a watery grave in 2011 when they beat them out the gate in the QF with a Dermot Connolly masterclass. The Kerry team of 11-15 could still be classified as a great team yet Dublin dismissed them. At the same time Dublin put potentially one of the greates Donegal teams of all time to the sword. Finally, IMO one of the greatest teams of our time, the very talented Mayo team of 12-17 has been repeatedly defeated by this Dublin team. What was your point again??? Just to remind you that Kerry once won a Sam having played 3 games, yes 3 games!! How many must Dublin win to win Sam now? I'll let you do the maths. This great Dublin team makes teams, which would have looked great in another era, seem average. That's not a boast at all, it's just a fact.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/09/2018 20:33:08    2141797

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Replying To Joxer:  "Eh no. This Dublin panel sent the greatest Tyrone team of all time to a watery grave in 2011 when they beat them out the gate in the QF with a Dermot Connolly masterclass. The Kerry team of 11-15 could still be classified as a great team yet Dublin dismissed them. At the same time Dublin put potentially one of the greates Donegal teams of all time to the sword. Finally, IMO one of the greatest teams of our time, the very talented Mayo team of 12-17 has been repeatedly defeated by this Dublin team. What was your point again??? Just to remind you that Kerry once won a Sam having played 3 games, yes 3 games!! How many must Dublin win to win Sam now? I'll let you do the maths. This great Dublin team makes teams, which would have looked great in another era, seem average. That's not a boast at all, it's just a fact."
No doubting this Dublin teams greatness and yeah ye have it easy up to the final but that's not Dublin's concern or fault...in 97 Kerry beat Tipp, Clare, Cavan and a Mayo team that never showed up in the final...nobody ever questioned them about it and instead and rightly remember it for the great maurice Fitz.

While Dublin fans feel they are not getting the credit right now I think in years to come people will remember this as the greatest team.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11227 - 14/09/2018 22:42:53    2141822

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Replying To yew_tree:  "No doubting this Dublin teams greatness and yeah ye have it easy up to the final but that's not Dublin's concern or fault...in 97 Kerry beat Tipp, Clare, Cavan and a Mayo team that never showed up in the final...nobody ever questioned them about it and instead and rightly remember it for the great maurice Fitz.

While Dublin fans feel they are not getting the credit right now I think in years to come people will remember this as the greatest team."
Yew, you always know the right thing to say to us ;) You're a top poster, in all seriousness.

Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 14/09/2018 23:36:36    2141833

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Replying To Joxer:  "Eh no. This Dublin panel sent the greatest Tyrone team of all time to a watery grave in 2011 when they beat them out the gate in the QF with a Dermot Connolly masterclass. The Kerry team of 11-15 could still be classified as a great team yet Dublin dismissed them. At the same time Dublin put potentially one of the greates Donegal teams of all time to the sword. Finally, IMO one of the greatest teams of our time, the very talented Mayo team of 12-17 has been repeatedly defeated by this Dublin team. What was your point again??? Just to remind you that Kerry once won a Sam having played 3 games, yes 3 games!! How many must Dublin win to win Sam now? I'll let you do the maths. This great Dublin team makes teams, which would have looked great in another era, seem average. That's not a boast at all, it's just a fact."
The kerry playing three games thing keeps getting repeated but is a straw man argument. Dublin have usually one, maybe two competitive games per year at a stretch. The rest are a complete and utter cakewalk that are played out in second gear.

Yes this Dublin team are great but let's not pretend the opposition are something they aren't. Tyrone were done long before 2011 and that kerry team 2011-15 were pretty average by kerry standards. Mayo, very good team no doubt about it but lacked the forwards to be considered a 'great' team in the history books. For some reason many previously successful counties have fallen off a cliff this decade. Not Dublin's fault and doesn't take away from their achievements either. If I was a Dublin fan that wouldn't bother me one bit. It's all about titles and they have swept the boards since 2011. That's all that matters, but please don't try to make out they've had it harder than great teams of the past. It simply isn't true.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 14/09/2018 23:51:04    2141835

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One of the greatest teams ever. Impossible to say the greatest as time machines are unavailable to bring teams forward to play them. It would be very interesting for instance to see how they would fair v Kerry or Tyrone of the 00s or the Kerry team of the 70s or 80s. They would do well imo, but 4 in a row well? Hmmm

However, people also should remember that a refereeing decision separated them from Kerry not once, but twice in this decade despite this being a 'poor' Kerry team.

Great teams always get a bit of luck, sometimes it is a season without injuries, other times it is an easier run to final. You can't say this about Dublin.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/09/2018 09:21:07    2141852

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "The kerry playing three games thing keeps getting repeated but is a straw man argument. Dublin have usually one, maybe two competitive games per year at a stretch. The rest are a complete and utter cakewalk that are played out in second gear.

Yes this Dublin team are great but let's not pretend the opposition are something they aren't. Tyrone were done long before 2011 and that kerry team 2011-15 were pretty average by kerry standards. Mayo, very good team no doubt about it but lacked the forwards to be considered a 'great' team in the history books. For some reason many previously successful counties have fallen off a cliff this decade. Not Dublin's fault and doesn't take away from their achievements either. If I was a Dublin fan that wouldn't bother me one bit. It's all about titles and they have swept the boards since 2011. That's all that matters, but please don't try to make out they've had it harder than great teams of the past. It simply isn't true."
The Kerry team that Dublin beat in 2011 contained..
Anthony Maher (24)
Bryan Sheehan (25)
Colm Cooper (28)
Darren O'Sullian (25)
Declan O'Sullivan (27)
Donnchadh Walsh (27)
"Star" (28)
Johnny Buckley (22)
Killian Young (24)
James O'Donghie (21)

All of above in their prime. Granted the O'Ses were 31 but that was the shape of the Kerry team that Dublin put away in 2011. Not of the same calibre of the great Mayo team granted but still streets ahead of a lot of teams that Kerry had to beat on the road to Sam in the past. Dublin's 3 game run in to win Sam in 2011 was against Tyrone (QF), Donegal (SF) and Kerry (F). All top quality sides at the time. As o'Rourke said of the Dubs after the AI final this year. "This is the greatest side that I have ever seen and when you consider they had to play 8 games to get this far when in the past Kerry played 3 or 4 games to win an AI". We're witnessing greatness in this team. They make very good teams like Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Mayo look ordinary. It won't last forever but we should admire it for what it is.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 15/09/2018 15:51:08    2141879

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Replying To Joxer:  "The Kerry team that Dublin beat in 2011 contained..
Anthony Maher (24)
Bryan Sheehan (25)
Colm Cooper (28)
Darren O'Sullian (25)
Declan O'Sullivan (27)
Donnchadh Walsh (27)
"Star" (28)
Johnny Buckley (22)
Killian Young (24)
James O'Donghie (21)

All of above in their prime. Granted the O'Ses were 31 but that was the shape of the Kerry team that Dublin put away in 2011. Not of the same calibre of the great Mayo team granted but still streets ahead of a lot of teams that Kerry had to beat on the road to Sam in the past. Dublin's 3 game run in to win Sam in 2011 was against Tyrone (QF), Donegal (SF) and Kerry (F). All top quality sides at the time. As o'Rourke said of the Dubs after the AI final this year. "This is the greatest side that I have ever seen and when you consider they had to play 8 games to get this far when in the past Kerry played 3 or 4 games to win an AI". We're witnessing greatness in this team. They make very good teams like Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Mayo look ordinary. It won't last forever but we should admire it for what it is."
You're equating the number of games with difficulty of winning Joxer and I wouldnt necessarily agree with that. Most games are a stroll in the park for the top teams now. Is there really such honour in hammering Laois and Westmeath year after year? These are the additional games you are talking about. If you want to use that as a yardstick fair enough.

2011 was a hard fought one no doubt and that was a good Kerry team but not at the level of the 00's when Seamus Moynihan, Fitzmaurice, Darragh and others were at their peak. That game could have gone either way too, it's not as if it was a comfortable win for Dublin.

I'm not trying to start a row with you or take anything away from Dublin they are an amazing team. I do find your attempt to discredit teams of the past to be a bit desperate and unnecessary though.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 15/09/2018 17:57:39    2141891

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Anything we did was between 2011 and 2014. Since then we are as mediocre as we were in the late 00s so by all means take a bow for 2011 Dublin but fixtures after 2014 was money in the bank. Galway (2017) and mayo (2015) easily knocked us out of the championship as well as the dubs in 2016. If we were as strong as 2012 or 2014 we would have given any team their fill of it. But we weren't and still aren't. Kerry and mayo would comprise of Dublin's only real opposition in the years 2015 until 2017. This year the order changed with Galway and Tyrone coming out of the field. History will judge how good these teams are. Ultimately for whatever reason you want to use, there is not the number of potential all Ireland winners from the field.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 15/09/2018 19:05:21    2141902

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There's probably two opposing views on it. The first is the Dublin are making good teams look worse than they are. The second is that the paucity of the opposition is making Dublin look better than they are. I don't know for sure which it is, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The only sure thing we have to work off is the record books and they will show that Dublin have won four in a row and are going for an unprecedented five. They will be strong favourites for two reasons. Firstly because they are a truly great team, and secondly because all the teams hoping to dethrone them have big issues to solve before they can hope to do so. You can say what you want about having to play 8 games but in my time following football I don't ever remember the field of contenders being this lightweight. Has a team ever been 1/7 going in to a final before? If so I can't remember it.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 15/09/2018 20:04:20    2141904

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "There's probably two opposing views on it. The first is the Dublin are making good teams look worse than they are. The second is that the paucity of the opposition is making Dublin look better than they are. I don't know for sure which it is, perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle.

The only sure thing we have to work off is the record books and they will show that Dublin have won four in a row and are going for an unprecedented five. They will be strong favourites for two reasons. Firstly because they are a truly great team, and secondly because all the teams hoping to dethrone them have big issues to solve before they can hope to do so. You can say what you want about having to play 8 games but in my time following football I don't ever remember the field of contenders being this lightweight. Has a team ever been 1/7 going in to a final before? If so I can't remember it."
It's the same in any era. Arguably in the 00s there were only 2 decent teams, Tyrone and Kerry. Traditional football contenders like Galway, Dublin and Meath were very poor. The field was very lightweight back then. In the 10s we've had Kerry, Donegal, Mayo and Dublin, the last 3 with arguably the best generation of players that those counties have ever produced. You look further afield now and Galway and Monaghan both have decent teams. I don't think any could be classified as lightweight but Dublin are just exceptionally good. Remove them and everyone would be raving about home competitive it is and how good the standard is. I just think Dublin are making very good teams look ordinary at the moment. They would have easily put away the Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00s IMO.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 15/09/2018 21:01:33    2141911

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Replying To Joxer:  "It's the same in any era. Arguably in the 00s there were only 2 decent teams, Tyrone and Kerry. Traditional football contenders like Galway, Dublin and Meath were very poor. The field was very lightweight back then. In the 10s we've had Kerry, Donegal, Mayo and Dublin, the last 3 with arguably the best generation of players that those counties have ever produced. You look further afield now and Galway and Monaghan both have decent teams. I don't think any could be classified as lightweight but Dublin are just exceptionally good. Remove them and everyone would be raving about home competitive it is and how good the standard is. I just think Dublin are making very good teams look ordinary at the moment. They would have easily put away the Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00s IMO."
They'd have easily beaten a Tyrone team that featured players like Canavan, Cavanagh, Dooher, Mcguigan, Mcmenimin, Jordan and O'Neill? Or a kerry with Moynihan, the O'Se's x 3, Galvin, Gooch, Donaghy, Declan etc all at their peak? We'll have to disagree on that. The Tyrone team ye beat a few weeks ago doesn't compare to the above IMO.

Armagh and Cork were knocking on the door all that time as well and both won All Ireland's. Didn't Cork even beat Dublin in 2010, not long before they finally got over the line?

I believe you are underestimating how good those teams above were. I'm not sure Dublin are facing that kind of quality at the minute but perhaps I am wrong.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 15/09/2018 21:30:04    2141915

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "They'd have easily beaten a Tyrone team that featured players like Canavan, Cavanagh, Dooher, Mcguigan, Mcmenimin, Jordan and O'Neill? Or a kerry with Moynihan, the O'Se's x 3, Galvin, Gooch, Donaghy, Declan etc all at their peak? We'll have to disagree on that. The Tyrone team ye beat a few weeks ago doesn't compare to the above IMO.

Armagh and Cork were knocking on the door all that time as well and both won All Ireland's. Didn't Cork even beat Dublin in 2010, not long before they finally got over the line?

I believe you are underestimating how good those teams above were. I'm not sure Dublin are facing that kind of quality at the minute but perhaps I am wrong."
Yep I think this Dublin team with Fenton, Connolly, Brogan, Kilkenny, McCarthy, Cooper, McCaffrey, Cluxton to name but a few multi-allstars would beat either of that Tyrone or Kerry team with room to spare. Just my opinion.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 15/09/2018 21:44:58    2141916

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Replying To Joxer:  "Yep I think this Dublin team with Fenton, Connolly, Brogan, Kilkenny, McCarthy, Cooper, McCaffrey, Cluxton to name but a few multi-allstars would beat either of that Tyrone or Kerry team with room to spare. Just my opinion."
Fair enough. I think it would be very very competitive, god would I love to see it. Anyway. I've no more to add. Regards, Gerry

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 15/09/2018 21:53:06    2141918

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Yep I think this Dublin team with Fenton, Connolly, Brogan, Kilkenny, McCarthy, Cooper, McCaffrey, Cluxton to name but a few multi-allstars would beat either of that Tyrone or Kerry team with room to spare. Just my opinion.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 3297 - 15/09/2018 21:44:58 Its all hypothetical but really is a bit much to say(and quite arrogant) theyd beat those sides comfortably. Those sides were extremaly good and to say theyd lose to this dublin side by few scores is very misguided IMO

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 15/09/2018 21:58:03    2141920

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Replying To Joxer:  "The Kerry team that Dublin beat in 2011 contained..
Anthony Maher (24)
Bryan Sheehan (25)
Colm Cooper (28)
Darren O'Sullian (25)
Declan O'Sullivan (27)
Donnchadh Walsh (27)
"Star" (28)
Johnny Buckley (22)
Killian Young (24)
James O'Donghie (21)

All of above in their prime. Granted the O'Ses were 31 but that was the shape of the Kerry team that Dublin put away in 2011. Not of the same calibre of the great Mayo team granted but still streets ahead of a lot of teams that Kerry had to beat on the road to Sam in the past. Dublin's 3 game run in to win Sam in 2011 was against Tyrone (QF), Donegal (SF) and Kerry (F). All top quality sides at the time. As o'Rourke said of the Dubs after the AI final this year. "This is the greatest side that I have ever seen and when you consider they had to play 8 games to get this far when in the past Kerry played 3 or 4 games to win an AI". We're witnessing greatness in this team. They make very good teams like Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Mayo look ordinary. It won't last forever but we should admire it for what it is."
How old was joe macquillan in 2011 joxer?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 15/09/2018 21:58:49    2141921

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Maybe the fitness/conditioning levels are higher these days, but from a footballing perspective I don't think we'd have beaten the Tyrone/Kerry teams of the noughties with room to spare. They'd be tight games, you'd love to see it but alas it is not possible.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8585 - 15/09/2018 22:26:34    2141923

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Replying To Joxer:  "It's the same in any era. Arguably in the 00s there were only 2 decent teams, Tyrone and Kerry. Traditional football contenders like Galway, Dublin and Meath were very poor. The field was very lightweight back then. In the 10s we've had Kerry, Donegal, Mayo and Dublin, the last 3 with arguably the best generation of players that those counties have ever produced. You look further afield now and Galway and Monaghan both have decent teams. I don't think any could be classified as lightweight but Dublin are just exceptionally good. Remove them and everyone would be raving about home competitive it is and how good the standard is. I just think Dublin are making very good teams look ordinary at the moment. They would have easily put away the Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00s IMO."
I do think the great Kerry teams of the 70's and 80's had an easier run to their All Ireland's than the current Dublin team. I would disagree with your view on the 00's though. I believe it was the strongest decade of football in the last thirty years. Would the current Dublin team have won All Ireland's during that decade - 100% yes. I do think this Dublin team play to the level required to win All Ireland's and if needed could go up a few gears, they are without doubt the best team of all time. If the 00's was the decade this team competed though they would have had some battles and could they have won 4 or 5 in a row?! I would say they would have dominated the period but would likely have got caught in a few big finals. The Tyrone and Kerry teams won the majority of All Ireland's in that time but don't forget Galway won it in 2001, and Armagh in 2002. Remember Kerry and Tyrone's huge battles with Armagh. We also had a very strong Cork team (2010 eventually won it) who also beat Kerry in a few Munster finals and whilst Donegal people might not acknowledge it, a very strong team from there who were unlucky to come at a time football was so strong in Ulster. I think the Kerry team of that era was one of the best produced in the county but they ran into a great era for football so couldn't get beyond back to back like a team as good would any other era. I think this Dublin team whilst winning All Ireland's would have had the same issue, it's easier to get caught when there are at least three very strong teams playing that era. I would say the 00's had at least three very strong teams who actually all won All Ireland's.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 15/09/2018 22:44:14    2141927

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "How old was joe macquillan in 2011 joxer?"
2 years younger than when we hammered ye in 2013 bud.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 15/09/2018 22:53:53    2141928

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