|
Important to remember that 2010 was a great football championship which is nowhere near as competitive as it is now. Meath won Leinster and put 5 goals past Dublin, Limerick pushed Kerry in the Munster final in an exceptional game, Tyrone won Ulster and Sligo beat both Mayo and Galway and still didn't win Connacht! Also I think it was one of the only years where all four teams from the qualifiers progressed to the semi-final's. Basing super 8's on last few years would suggest it would be poor. Kildare were very poor in 2015 and reached the quarter finals, no disrespect to Clare but they reached the last 8 in 2016 aswell, both teams would have been demolished in current format. With a system like this in place it only benefits the strong counties with depth in their panel, i.e Dublin. What do Roscommon have to play for on Sunday? Realistically is a hammering V the Dubs going to do a young team much use? the players will have their going out clothes packed for a few pints of a bank holiday Sunday.
ShortGrass_1 (Kildare) - Posts: 223 - 01/08/2018 22:44:05
2128382
Link
1
|
|
Two different people said this to me from counties outside my own the past week.."the championship is a duller place without ye" I think Brolly and a Alan Brogan said similar..
So with the mantra that this years football is flat...have the epic Dublin v Mayo games and Mayo's back door runs masked a pot football championship for some time?
Everyone is raving about hurling but is goes in spells and swings. Hurling I found boring when Kilkenny were wiling he floor with everyone.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11230 - 02/08/2018 08:22:08
2128406
Link
1
|
|
Replying To gunman: "The problem with the quarter finals was that the provinchial champions were the only ones that did not get a second chance." The provincial winners benefited in the quarter finals over the years by being seeded against back door teams and most importantly, having an extra week to rest for the game. I agree though that the super 8 is marginally fairer for all teams
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 02/08/2018 09:38:23
2128411
Link
0
|
|
Dead rubbers are a major flaw in the Super 8s. They are unavoidable and are going to occur on many occasions. It's lucky that this year there weren't three of them in the last round, which would have happened only for David Clifford's last minute goal.
The chances of them occurring can be slightly mitigated by scheduling the second round based on the results from the first one so that the winners are paired together. For example, that would mean in Group 1 this year that Galway and Monaghan would have met in round 2 as first round winners (with Kerry and Kildare being the other game). That is, rounds 2 and 3 would have been swapped for that group.
That would eliminate the possibility of two teams having already qualified after the second round as a points table reading as 4,4,0,0 could no longer occur. In this example, had the results of those games been the same as actually happened (that is, wins for Monaghan and Kerry) then the table going into the last round would have read:
Monaghan 4
Galway 2
Kerry 2
Kildare 0
The final round of games (Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway) would have then been meaningful for all teams.
However, rescheduling round 2 games at short notice like this would have caused its own problems so it's probably not a viable option.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 05/08/2018 12:44:08
2129320
Link
0
|
|
Replying To CeachtPeile: "Dead rubbers are a major flaw in the Super 8s. They are unavoidable and are going to occur on many occasions. It's lucky that this year there weren't three of them in the last round, which would have happened only for David Clifford's last minute goal.
The chances of them occurring can be slightly mitigated by scheduling the second round based on the results from the first one so that the winners are paired together. For example, that would mean in Group 1 this year that Galway and Monaghan would have met in round 2 as first round winners (with Kerry and Kildare being the other game). That is, rounds 2 and 3 would have been swapped for that group.
That would eliminate the possibility of two teams having already qualified after the second round as a points table reading as 4,4,0,0 could no longer occur. In this example, had the results of those games been the same as actually happened (that is, wins for Monaghan and Kerry) then the table going into the last round would have read:
Monaghan 4
Galway 2
Kerry 2
Kildare 0
The final round of games (Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway) would have then been meaningful for all teams.
However, rescheduling round 2 games at short notice like this would have caused its own problems so it's probably not a viable option." It's definitely a viable option - sure qualifier draws are made on a Monday morning for the following Saturday.
However, dead rubber or not, you'll still get a team in Galway's position yesterday who bring the whole integrity of the competition into question.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 05/08/2018 12:59:18
2129328
Link
0
|
|
Replying To cavanman47: "It's definitely a viable option - sure qualifier draws are made on a Monday morning for the following Saturday.
However, dead rubber or not, you'll still get a team in Galway's position yesterday who bring the whole integrity of the competition into question." Galway had something to play for. Topping the group and avoiding Dublin.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 05/08/2018 13:12:33
2129332
Link
1
|
|
Replying To CeachtPeile: "Dead rubbers are a major flaw in the Super 8s. They are unavoidable and are going to occur on many occasions. It's lucky that this year there weren't three of them in the last round, which would have happened only for David Clifford's last minute goal.
The chances of them occurring can be slightly mitigated by scheduling the second round based on the results from the first one so that the winners are paired together. For example, that would mean in Group 1 this year that Galway and Monaghan would have met in round 2 as first round winners (with Kerry and Kildare being the other game). That is, rounds 2 and 3 would have been swapped for that group.
That would eliminate the possibility of two teams having already qualified after the second round as a points table reading as 4,4,0,0 could no longer occur. In this example, had the results of those games been the same as actually happened (that is, wins for Monaghan and Kerry) then the table going into the last round would have read:
Monaghan 4
Galway 2
Kerry 2
Kildare 0
The final round of games (Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway) would have then been meaningful for all teams.
However, rescheduling round 2 games at short notice like this would have caused its own problems so it's probably not a viable option." Making the break between round 1 and 2 would mean there's 2 weeks to get ready for it.
The break between round 2 and 3 is stupid anyway. Roscommon and Kildare had 2 weeks of training for a nothing game.
It's these small sorts of details the GAA mess up time and again.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 05/08/2018 13:15:43
2129334
Link
1
|
|
That farce of a game today between Dublin and Roscommon, which was really a challenge match, shows the problem with having dead rubbers at this stage of the championship. It could easily happen in the future that all four games in round 3 could be like this with qualification already decided and only first and second place in the groups to be determined.
There's also the possibly more serious problem of half-dead rubbers (being discussed in another thread) where the result only matters to one team. This was the case in the Kerry v Kildare game yesterday and arguably also the case in Monaghan v Galway. Such games have the potential to damage the integrity of the competition.
So can they be avoided? The only possible way is by adopting the system used in the 1954 soccer World Cup. There there were groups of four but only TWO ROUNDS of games were played with the two seeded teams not meeting. Adapting that for the super 8s, with the provincial champions being the seeded teams, means that the current first round of games (provincial champion v provincial champion and qualifier v qualifier) would not take place.
So taking Group 2 for this year it means the first round would have been: Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway. The second and final round would have been Galway v Monaghan and Kerry v Kildare. Both these round 2 games would always be meaningful regardless of the outcome of the first round.
Had the results been as they were in reality then the table would have finished as:
Monaghan 3
Kerry 3
Galway 2
Kildare 0
so actually Kerry would have qualified instead!
The table for Group 1 would have finished as:
Dublin 4
Tyrone 2
Donegal 2
Roscommon 0
In this system teams that are equal on points would be separated by a play-off to determine qualification for the semi-finals. The third week could be used for any play-offs but it would mean all games are meaningful. It would mean that Tyrone and Donegal would have to play again in week 3 in this case.
There are eight league points available from the four games in each group and there are only eight possible outcomes in terms of the distribution of those points:
4, 4, 0, 0 (i.e. Team A gets 4 points; Team B gets 4 points; Teams C and D get 0 points)
4, 3, 1, 0
4, 2, 2, 0
4, 2, 1, 1
3, 3, 2, 0
3, 3, 1, 1
3, 2, 2, 1
2, 2, 2, 2
In only three of those cases (the third, seventh and eight) would a play-off be needed. In the last case where all teams end up on 2 points the play-offs could be between the teams that haven't met already.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 05/08/2018 18:34:03
2129543
Link
0
|
|
One thing to remember for next years glorious installment is that teams will no doubt be looking to avoid Dublin's group. Let the battle to lose the Connacht final commence - much more incentive to get to a semi-final through the auld back door route!
WaitingInTheLongGrass (Roscommon) - Posts: 165 - 08/08/2018 08:54:34
2130716
Link
0
|
|
Replying To WaitingInTheLongGrass: "One thing to remember for next years glorious installment is that teams will no doubt be looking to avoid Dublin's group. Let the battle to lose the Connacht final commence - much more incentive to get to a semi-final through the auld back door route!" Ah you'd still have to win a back door game to get to through a round 4 qualifier and have both the Ulster and Munster champions in your group. It'd be unlikely that this be a preferable route even with the avoidance off Dublin.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 08/08/2018 16:55:28
2130903
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "Ah you'd still have to win a back door game to get to through a round 4 qualifier and have both the Ulster and Munster champions in your group. It'd be unlikely that this be a preferable route even with the avoidance off Dublin." Think I'd still rather playing the extra game myself. Actually having a real opportunity to win three games would be better off than the waiting around scratching yourself to play a meaningless game.
We will only see more of these dead rubber practice games over the next couple years like dub/Ros. There won't be anything to wash the biro stain from that I'll tell ya
WaitingInTheLongGrass (Roscommon) - Posts: 165 - 08/08/2018 17:34:40
2130927
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "Galway had something to play for. Topping the group and avoiding Dublin." I donno - based on the example you gave, Galw improves their AI chance to 13% from 10% by avoiding Dubs in SF - is this enough incentive to improve on the SF berth already earned ?
The irony here is - as you up the likelihood of Dubs winning a match to say 90%, that 3% margin goes down - and so does the so called incentive to avoid Dubs in SF.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 09/08/2018 22:43:40
2131379
Link
0
|
|
Replying To CeachtPeile: "That farce of a game today between Dublin and Roscommon, which was really a challenge match, shows the problem with having dead rubbers at this stage of the championship. It could easily happen in the future that all four games in round 3 could be like this with qualification already decided and only first and second place in the groups to be determined.
There's also the possibly more serious problem of half-dead rubbers (being discussed in another thread) where the result only matters to one team. This was the case in the Kerry v Kildare game yesterday and arguably also the case in Monaghan v Galway. Such games have the potential to damage the integrity of the competition.
So can they be avoided? The only possible way is by adopting the system used in the 1954 soccer World Cup. There there were groups of four but only TWO ROUNDS of games were played with the two seeded teams not meeting. Adapting that for the super 8s, with the provincial champions being the seeded teams, means that the current first round of games (provincial champion v provincial champion and qualifier v qualifier) would not take place.
So taking Group 2 for this year it means the first round would have been: Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway. The second and final round would have been Galway v Monaghan and Kerry v Kildare. Both these round 2 games would always be meaningful regardless of the outcome of the first round.
Had the results been as they were in reality then the table would have finished as:
Monaghan 3
Kerry 3
Galway 2
Kildare 0
so actually Kerry would have qualified instead!
The table for Group 1 would have finished as:
Dublin 4
Tyrone 2
Donegal 2
Roscommon 0
In this system teams that are equal on points would be separated by a play-off to determine qualification for the semi-finals. The third week could be used for any play-offs but it would mean all games are meaningful. It would mean that Tyrone and Donegal would have to play again in week 3 in this case.
There are eight league points available from the four games in each group and there are only eight possible outcomes in terms of the distribution of those points:
4, 4, 0, 0 (i.e. Team A gets 4 points; Team B gets 4 points; Teams C and D get 0 points)
4, 3, 1, 0
4, 2, 2, 0
4, 2, 1, 1
3, 3, 2, 0
3, 3, 1, 1
3, 2, 2, 1
2, 2, 2, 2
In only three of those cases (the third, seventh and eight) would a play-off be needed. In the last case where all teams end up on 2 points the play-offs could be between the teams that haven't met already." I think a cleaner way wiuld be to use the 'old' C Ring format - the 8 play - 4 winners to Rd 2a, 4 losers to 2b; 2a winners to SFs, 2b losers are out, and the other 4 play in QFs (like your 3rd match playoffs).
Btw, in your post of Aug 5 - you mentioned 4-2-2-0 would rid the Super 8 of dead rubbers - it might not - there might be 4v0 required - which is like the 2a winner v 2b loser.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 09/08/2018 22:59:04
2131383
Link
0
|
|
Replying To WaitingInTheLongGrass: "One thing to remember for next years glorious installment is that teams will no doubt be looking to avoid Dublin's group. Let the battle to lose the Connacht final commence - much more incentive to get to a semi-final through the auld back door route!" More mischief I see - well, if you go to Dubs group you avoid them in SFs for sure - just have to earn the other KO berth in the Dubs group- you might have to win the non-Dubs group which might be a harder ask, depending on the teams.
Let's end the debate - scrap the flawed Super 8 and go with a Super 12 - 4x3 with top 2 in each to KO QFs - still only 12 group games over 3 playing wkds - although the KO QFs would be additional - more teams get in - dead rubbers ELIMINATED if 1st group match winner plays again in the 3rd match.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 09/08/2018 23:07:43
2131388
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "I donno - based on the example you gave, Galw improves their AI chance to 13% from 10% by avoiding Dubs in SF - is this enough incentive to improve on the SF berth already earned ?
The irony here is - as you up the likelihood of Dubs winning a match to say 90%, that 3% margin goes down - and so does the so called incentive to avoid Dubs in SF." Yes, it makes a huge difference.
You are improving you own likelihood of winning by 30% (13/10-1). That's the important number here not 13%-10%.
Dublin being at 90% makes it more worth avoiding them under this metric.
So you'd be 5% if you meet them or 7% if you don't meet them. That's 40% more times you end up winning the All Ireland.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 10/08/2018 05:28:56
2131418
Link
1
|
|
Replying To gunman: "The problem with the quarter finals was that the provinchial champions were the only ones that did not get a second chance." Isnt that the point? Provincial winners get automatic qualification for Super 8's, thered be no incentive otherwise other than a trophy..
The question is though, using Donegal as an example, they fell apart v Tyrone in the last 10 min of round 3 QFs, is Winning provincial and having a break and not playing so many game a benefit or a hindrance as far as match fitness goes?
Eventually, the provincials will be tweaked or disbanded, after all, "purists" might say that Ulster football is boring, but its the only competitive provincial that we have...
Crowcrag (Monaghan) - Posts: 34 - 10/08/2018 07:31:27
2131422
Link
0
|
|
Replying To CeachtPeile: "That farce of a game today between Dublin and Roscommon, which was really a challenge match, shows the problem with having dead rubbers at this stage of the championship. It could easily happen in the future that all four games in round 3 could be like this with qualification already decided and only first and second place in the groups to be determined.
There's also the possibly more serious problem of half-dead rubbers (being discussed in another thread) where the result only matters to one team. This was the case in the Kerry v Kildare game yesterday and arguably also the case in Monaghan v Galway. Such games have the potential to damage the integrity of the competition.
So can they be avoided? The only possible way is by adopting the system used in the 1954 soccer World Cup. There there were groups of four but only TWO ROUNDS of games were played with the two seeded teams not meeting. Adapting that for the super 8s, with the provincial champions being the seeded teams, means that the current first round of games (provincial champion v provincial champion and qualifier v qualifier) would not take place.
So taking Group 2 for this year it means the first round would have been: Monaghan v Kerry and Kildare v Galway. The second and final round would have been Galway v Monaghan and Kerry v Kildare. Both these round 2 games would always be meaningful regardless of the outcome of the first round.
Had the results been as they were in reality then the table would have finished as:
Monaghan 3
Kerry 3
Galway 2
Kildare 0
so actually Kerry would have qualified instead!
The table for Group 1 would have finished as:
Dublin 4
Tyrone 2
Donegal 2
Roscommon 0
In this system teams that are equal on points would be separated by a play-off to determine qualification for the semi-finals. The third week could be used for any play-offs but it would mean all games are meaningful. It would mean that Tyrone and Donegal would have to play again in week 3 in this case.
There are eight league points available from the four games in each group and there are only eight possible outcomes in terms of the distribution of those points:
4, 4, 0, 0 (i.e. Team A gets 4 points; Team B gets 4 points; Teams C and D get 0 points)
4, 3, 1, 0
4, 2, 2, 0
4, 2, 1, 1
3, 3, 2, 0
3, 3, 1, 1
3, 2, 2, 1
2, 2, 2, 2
In only three of those cases (the third, seventh and eight) would a play-off be needed. In the last case where all teams end up on 2 points the play-offs could be between the teams that haven't met already." appreciate the work you put into post but you forgot that if Galway had to beat Monaghan your hypothetical results might be off a bit, I still agree with you that we have a dead rubber issue
suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 10/08/2018 14:30:04
2131549
Link
0
|
|
Replying To yew_tree: "Two different people said this to me from counties outside my own the past week.."the championship is a duller place without ye" I think Brolly and a Alan Brogan said similar..
So with the mantra that this years football is flat...have the epic Dublin v Mayo games and Mayo's back door runs masked a pot football championship for some time?
Everyone is raving about hurling but is goes in spells and swings. Hurling I found boring when Kilkenny were wiling he floor with everyone." this mayo story have been covering up for how poor/ordinary the championship has been over the last number of years..barring the odd semi and obviously the mayo-dublin series of games its been quite dull/very uncompetitive
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 10/08/2018 17:03:28
2131592
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "Yes, it makes a huge difference.
You are improving you own likelihood of winning by 30% (13/10-1). That's the important number here not 13%-10%.
Dublin being at 90% makes it more worth avoiding them under this metric.
So you'd be 5% if you meet them or 7% if you don't meet them. That's 40% more times you end up winning the All Ireland." I take you point on relative size - up to 40% from 30%.
I was looking at it from actual size - down to 2% margin difference (7% v 5%) from 3% (13% v 10%).
I feel the incentive to win the group is probably based more on the latter - e.g. increase from 50% to 80% has greater impact than quadrupling from 1% to 4% (ok, extreme case to make a point).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 12/08/2018 18:47:05
2132362
Link
0
|
|
....actually, we both hit a blind spot there.....it is 5% and 14% (not 5% and 7%). That outsizes your % and kills my 'irony' point.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2581 - 12/08/2018 18:52:32
2132365
Link
0
|