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Replying To Whammo86: "Omahant
This is some friendly advice.
I think some of your formats can be a little over complicated. Some of the ones that aren't overly complicated you sometimes explain a little bit unclearly. It's easier if you take 1 round at a time and explain exactly what is going on. The short hands 2+6 or 12 and Provincial 4 aren't meaningful outside of me and you pretty much.
I think sometimes your formats are interesting theoretically but don't address some of the real issues in the scheduling problem.
For instance you 3 groups of 8 qualifier system that eventually leads to 6 qualifiers is let down by the fact that it's still hard to schedule club fixtures around the games. At the start of a season a county board will have no idea at all which weekends in which they will be playing.
One of the big pluses about the rejig of the hurling was a simplification of the fixture plan. Football needs to follow suit and ditch qualifiers. They cause a lot of problems as teams have many more potential weekends they could play and many never get used. They go to waste for club competition because you can't schedule matches at such short notice.
I think your formats would go down better if they were more based in identifying the problems in the current structures and looking at ways to fix them.
This post is not intended to be insulting in any way. It's just some constructive advice." +1
Simplification is best. Changes that are a step or aren't too drastic from current structures work as well.
I've said before Omahant, you need to cool the jets from the formats, as do I at times. Enjoy the game.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 20/06/2018 20:02:04
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Scheduling Issue -
The main problem for me with GAA scheduling is that intercounty players serve two masters - club and county - with some serving a 3rd (e.g. college as well). There was a time when Ulster and Munster rugby teams were representative - like GAA counties. As you know, for some time (20 yrs ?), those Provinces have become akin to 'super clubs' where their players are not linked to any underlying club teams. I would want intercounty to take that route - maybe it will when professionalism is surely implemented in the future.
Under the present 'real' set up however, it has been mentioned here and at GAA HQ, planned calendars for club and county is best - April and Sept clubs only etc.
The problem with the intercounty calendar is that 'league' games are a guaranteed schedule for all, but KO gamss are not - whether in the old days, one loss and out, or now Qualifiers - you never know how far you'll go - so round robin / season long league is best with short 'uncertain' KO phase at the end.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 20/06/2018 22:44:00
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...continuing....if we limit the KO phase to say, a not so disruptive KO Last 16 (4 rounds) or the current Super 8, SF, F (5 rds), how many 'league or championship group' games can we fit into a desired season. Working backwards then - say season is start of Feb to end of Aug (7 months, 30 weeks). Say, blend the county and club seasons together - so there are no 'blackout blocks' and club players play through the summer as well. County and club play every 2nd week (alternating).
So, counties has 30 weeks divided by 2 = enough for 15 games, minus say 4 for KO end, leaves 11 for the 'league/groups'. We could find a few 'off' weeks to add a few more matches.
The problem here is the same as the cyrrent problem - county players may not want to play week in week out - Catch 22 until the county players can get a club divorce.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 20/06/2018 23:57:33
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People are finding the preliminary quarter-finals that are in place for the hurling confusing!
The majority of the paying public have to easily understand what stage the championships are at.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 21/06/2018 08:29:29
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You know, I find terms such as confusing / understandable as well as simple / complex to be relative terms.
What if you designed a tournament nice and simple - straight KO start to finish, 32 teams in 4 regions - quite simple you'd say - let's do it - but let's divide them 12-5-6-9 - oh, but that's not fair (just in case I lost anyone, that's the OLD Championship) - simplicity has no value in a flawed structure.
Now, take 32 teams, play 3 teams twice, 6 of 15 once (own conference), 4 of 16 once (other conference) and 18 of 31 go unplayed. With the 32 split into 8 groups/divisions playing vastly different schedules, have '4 wild cards' with best records make the 12-team KO, along with 8 group winners.
Let the 2nd KO pairings be initially uncertain but determined by 1st KO rd results (daft ?)....I won't even start on describing a team's 16-match season from year to year based on separate 3- and 4-year rotations. This time, I may have lost most of you - some of you will know this is the US NFL.
Too confusing you say - then, why does it go on like this year in year out, with such massive entertainment and financial success ? Possibly short of the finer details on the schedule rotation and position tie.breakers, most US NFL fans I feel have a good grip on the format.
This format is elaborate and complex - I for one would not make many changes.
Don't confuse fair/balanced with simple/complex - either or neither of the latter may satisfy the former.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 21/06/2018 11:34:42
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Back to GAA scheduling - let's give a full shut down (off season) of all matches in Nov, Dec and Jan (13 weeks), leaving eligible 39 weeks for games - before tweaking, let's start with blending 13 exclusive intercounty weekends (every 3rd week), with 13 exclusive club weekends (every 3rd week) with each 3rd week off.
Now for some tweaks - July Aug reserved for 4-5 rds of intercounty AIC KO Phase - Sept Oct reserved for club Prov and AI KO Phase. How would you change the 13-13-13 above ? Intercounty 17 (in 2018, Dublin expected to play 8 NFL and 8 AIC - and we may need to get of the pre-season Provs - to live with 17-match target), Club leave it at 13 and off weekends then 9.
What is a good club match quantity here ? -
1) guaranteed matches in county championship / county league;
2) uncertain total 'potential' KO games in county / prov / aic.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 21/06/2018 12:06:28
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I've got one you will like Omahant.
Ulster/Connacht division of 10 teams
Leinster/Munster division of 10 teams
Championship 2 of 12 teams
Top of each division straight into AI semifinals
2/3 from each division into AI quarterfinals
Top 6 in each division retains status for following season.
Championship 2 winner gets promoted.
At the start of each season there will be 13 teams automatically qualified for the main championship.
There will be an Ulster/Connacht qualifying league of 8 or 9 playing for 3 or 4 spaces.
There will be a Leinster/Munster qualifying league of 10 or 11 playing for 3 or 4 spaces.
If you play a team in Provincial qualifying that result goes forward to a teams Provincial league or championship 2 league record.
At the Provincial qualifying the 5 eliminated Ulster/Connacht teams play 7 fixtures against the eliminated Leinster/Munster teams (who therefore get 5 fixtures)
Top 6 teams from championship 2 go through to their knockout round for a place in the following seasons main championship.
The teams qualifying for their Provincial championship will have either 6 or 7 remaining games, depending on whether there were 4 or 3 places available in their Provincial league.
The automatically qualified teams will have either to or 3 games played by that stage depending on the numbers coming from the qualifying league.
The National League can be played by the 13 teams who automatically qualified for their Provincial league.
1 group of 6 plus 1 group of 7 moving forward to semifinals and finals.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 24/06/2018 07:19:00
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I'm going to wade in here, because I can. Here's an idea. Summary at the end.
Phase 1
Round 1: 32 teams, open draw. (Preceded by preliminary round if New York and/or Kilkenny ever decide to join in.) Maybe give home advantage to lower league teams against higher league teams.
R2: 16 teams, open draw.
R3: 8 teams, open draw.
This leaves us with 4 winners from Round 3.
Phase 2
THEN play the provincial championships. This gives us 4 provincial champions.
The four R3 winners from Phase 1 and the four provincial champions contest All-Ireland quarter-finals. If a team qualifies both ways, that team gets a bye to the semi-finals. You could end up having no quarter-finals at all, or all four, or any number in between. And you'd keep provincial champions apart from the team they beat in the provincial final, I suppose.
Summary: a two-stage championship, beginning with a national knockout down to 4 teams, followed by the provincials to produce another 4 teams.
Advantages:
• Simple format.
• Everyone still gets at least two games.
• The provincial championships still have relevance; in fact, they'll be the second chance for most counties, rather than the other way around.
• You could maybe get Phase 1 done in 3-4 weeks.
Disadvantages:
• Probably a lot more games, maybe too many? If Dublin won all their games, they'd play three games in Phase 1, three games in Leinster, and an All-Ireland semi-final and final. That's two more games than at present. A team from the preliminary round in Ulster that loses in Round 3 in Phase 1 would end up playing 9 games just to reach the final.
• Probably other disadvantages: please tell me.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 29/06/2018 00:35:37
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Replying To Whammo86: "I've got one you will like Omahant.
Ulster/Connacht division of 10 teams
Leinster/Munster division of 10 teams
Championship 2 of 12 teams
Top of each division straight into AI semifinals
2/3 from each division into AI quarterfinals
Top 6 in each division retains status for following season.
Championship 2 winner gets promoted.
At the start of each season there will be 13 teams automatically qualified for the main championship.
There will be an Ulster/Connacht qualifying league of 8 or 9 playing for 3 or 4 spaces.
There will be a Leinster/Munster qualifying league of 10 or 11 playing for 3 or 4 spaces.
If you play a team in Provincial qualifying that result goes forward to a teams Provincial league or championship 2 league record.
At the Provincial qualifying the 5 eliminated Ulster/Connacht teams play 7 fixtures against the eliminated Leinster/Munster teams (who therefore get 5 fixtures)
Top 6 teams from championship 2 go through to their knockout round for a place in the following seasons main championship.
The teams qualifying for their Provincial championship will have either 6 or 7 remaining games, depending on whether there were 4 or 3 places available in their Provincial league.
The automatically qualified teams will have either to or 3 games played by that stage depending on the numbers coming from the qualifying league.
The National League can be played by the 13 teams who automatically qualified for their Provincial league.
1 group of 6 plus 1 group of 7 moving forward to semifinals and finals." I have to say I like elaborate/complex if it meets the goal of fairness - but I read this multiple times and finally, made sense of it. We don't need such confusion. You were off this time - I did not like this at all !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 03/07/2018 01:08:11
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Ladies AI SFC already operating with 4 groups of 3 prior to KO QFs.
The men could use 6 groups of 3, with top 2 from each joining 4 Prkv Champs in AI KO 16.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 05/07/2018 03:35:41
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Best chance of GAA approval could be an improved version of the GPA 8 groups of 4, as follows -
Top NFL 12 - asign 3 to each 'group' of 4
Low NFL 8-asign 2 to each 'pool' (< strong grp) of 4.
Mid NFL 12 - asign 1 to 4 groups / 2 to 4 pools.
After 3 matches/team- top 3 from each to AI KO 24.
Top 2 in 4x4 strong groups to Rd of 16 - other 16 playoff for remaining 8 Rd of 16 berths.
Rd of 16 pairings (and bracket also set thru AI KO) -
4x Group 1sts host (4x Pool 1sts or 4x Pool 3rds).
4x Group 2nds host (4x Pool 2nds or 4x Grp 3rds).
The AI Last 16 are then exclusively drawn to Groups in the following year - that will be 4 to 8 former Pool teams seeded 4 or 3 in the next yr Groups draw, with prior Group 1sts and 2nds seeded 1 and 2, respectively.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 05/07/2018 04:05:15
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Replying To omahant: "I have to say I like elaborate/complex if it meets the goal of fairness - but I read this multiple times and finally, made sense of it. We don't need such confusion. You were off this time - I did not like this at all !" I was probably going for too much here.
Something I was aiming for was a league based competition.
Having two tiers can be interesting as it means more meaningful games can be played, retaining a place in the top tier can be played for once a team is out of the running for winning the competition.
Leaving places open for a start of season qualifying tournament keeps things interesting for all teams. Everyone gets a chance at the top tier each year but if they miss out they still have a meaningful competition to get a place in the following season's top tier.
Combining Connacht with Ulster and Leinster with Munster might create more top matches with the competition split between 2 regions rather than 4 regions.
That was the thought process behind what I came up with.
It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster though. I agree it's not great.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 05/07/2018 18:38:08
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Replying To Whammo86: "I was probably going for too much here.
Something I was aiming for was a league based competition.
Having two tiers can be interesting as it means more meaningful games can be played, retaining a place in the top tier can be played for once a team is out of the running for winning the competition.
Leaving places open for a start of season qualifying tournament keeps things interesting for all teams. Everyone gets a chance at the top tier each year but if they miss out they still have a meaningful competition to get a place in the following season's top tier.
Combining Connacht with Ulster and Leinster with Munster might create more top matches with the competition split between 2 regions rather than 4 regions.
That was the thought process behind what I came up with.
It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster though. I agree it's not great." I like the 'Northwest and Southeast' conferences - and the carrying over of match results - BUT, how many results are being dropped as teams split between Tiers 1 and 2 - and different teams drop different quantities - no me like, sorry - neat no it.
Btw, did you notice ladies football going with 4 groups of 3 after the Prov KO for 1st time 2018 - leading to the AI KO QFs - I'd prefer if the men had a 'Super 12' like this - 12 super games (like actual Super 8) but a broader net, letting more teams in, followed by 3 KO rds instead of 2.
As you know, I'd like 6x3 (18) as the advancing 12 and separate 4 KO Prov Champs lead to AI KO 16 (less likely 4 byes).
Cheers !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 06/07/2018 00:00:00
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Replying To Whammo86: "I was probably going for too much here.
Something I was aiming for was a league based competition.
Having two tiers can be interesting as it means more meaningful games can be played, retaining a place in the top tier can be played for once a team is out of the running for winning the competition.
Leaving places open for a start of season qualifying tournament keeps things interesting for all teams. Everyone gets a chance at the top tier each year but if they miss out they still have a meaningful competition to get a place in the following season's top tier.
Combining Connacht with Ulster and Leinster with Munster might create more top matches with the competition split between 2 regions rather than 4 regions.
That was the thought process behind what I came up with.
It's a bit of a Frankenstein's monster though. I agree it's not great." For league-based AIC, I like my 2 Confs of 16 based on each Conf 'initially' having half of each NFL div - and therefore, each Conf is national of equal strength.
Let me entertain your regional split - NW 16 and SE 16. I still want to avoid 'David v Goliath' matchups - and I know you don't like the lack of round robin purity - so bear with me - I move to intra-region 12 of 15 opponents - 1st 3 seeds avoid 5th 3 seeds;
3 2nds avoid 3 4ths; and mid 4 avoid each other. Like before, top 6 in each to AI KO 12, but now KO has to be Inter Region and risk of repeats is greater - so be it - what do you think - I know your answer !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 06/07/2018 00:35:57
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "I'm going to wade in here, because I can. Here's an idea. Summary at the end.
Phase 1
Round 1: 32 teams, open draw. (Preceded by preliminary round if New York and/or Kilkenny ever decide to join in.) Maybe give home advantage to lower league teams against higher league teams.
R2: 16 teams, open draw.
R3: 8 teams, open draw.
This leaves us with 4 winners from Round 3.
Phase 2
THEN play the provincial championships. This gives us 4 provincial champions.
The four R3 winners from Phase 1 and the four provincial champions contest All-Ireland quarter-finals. If a team qualifies both ways, that team gets a bye to the semi-finals. You could end up having no quarter-finals at all, or all four, or any number in between. And you'd keep provincial champions apart from the team they beat in the provincial final, I suppose.
Summary: a two-stage championship, beginning with a national knockout down to 4 teams, followed by the provincials to produce another 4 teams.
Advantages:
• Simple format.
• Everyone still gets at least two games.
• The provincial championships still have relevance; in fact, they'll be the second chance for most counties, rather than the other way around.
• You could maybe get Phase 1 done in 3-4 weeks.
Disadvantages:
• Probably a lot more games, maybe too many? If Dublin won all their games, they'd play three games in Phase 1, three games in Leinster, and an All-Ireland semi-final and final. That's two more games than at present. A team from the preliminary round in Ulster that loses in Round 3 in Phase 1 would end up playing 9 games just to reach the final.
• Probably other disadvantages: please tell me." To counter Prov imbalance, why not 12 + 4 Prov Champs to AI KO 16. This is much better, fairer, balanced, and unapproved.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 06/07/2018 01:45:22
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You know - those 8 Dubs games is exactly what they expect in 2018 - 3 Lein, 3 Super 8, SF, F.
OK, the Prelim Uls team plays 1 more - big deal, get real !
There could be a game quantity gap between strong teams though - say 2 go head to head in Open Draw Rd 1 - well, the loser automatically plays 2 games less (not in Rd 2 and 3).
Better to have a group phase that guarantees all the same number of group games.
I like a Super 18 - 6x3 with 2 advancing + 4 Prov Champs to AI KO 16.
Or, if you prefer 10x3 plus 1 pair - best 2nd from 10x3 plus 11 winners plus 4 Champs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 07/07/2018 01:16:39
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Replying To omahant: "For league-based AIC, I like my 2 Confs of 16 based on each Conf 'initially' having half of each NFL div - and therefore, each Conf is national of equal strength.
Let me entertain your regional split - NW 16 and SE 16. I still want to avoid 'David v Goliath' matchups - and I know you don't like the lack of round robin purity - so bear with me - I move to intra-region 12 of 15 opponents - 1st 3 seeds avoid 5th 3 seeds;
3 2nds avoid 3 4ths; and mid 4 avoid each other. Like before, top 6 in each to AI KO 12, but now KO has to be Inter Region and risk of repeats is greater - so be it - what do you think - I know your answer !" I don't dislike a lack of round robin purity.
I just like meritocracy.
So I don't like when competitions are organised on a global basis ie anyone in the league can play anyone else but then for that league to have multiple ladders.
I dislike the NFL structure for instance.
You have the 32 teams all play a mix of matches but then they have 8 tables. It means that a team with a 7-9 record can progress at the expense of a team with a 9-7 record. It's doubly compounded in the NFL because the team with the 7-9 record has objectively played a weaker schedule since they've played 6 matches against teams in their weak 4 team division.
I also dislike that in preventing strong versus weak match ups that tanking in one season is incentivised to get an easier schedule for the following season.
I also think the avoidance of strong v weak is not necessary and your solution to avoiding one sided matches doesn't tally with reality.
Right now there are 2 teams (Kerry and Dublin) that will pretty easily beat all but the top 5-10. Kerry this year destroyed Cork a top 10 team. Last season Dublin hammered Monaghan, Tyrone and Kildare all 4-10 ranked teams. In your system Dublin still play teams around 17-24 4 times in a season. So they'll have 4 games against teams of the Longford/Offaly/Sligo variety. I don't mind that per se, I just don't get the logic that Longford can be allowed to face all of Kerry, Dublin, Cork, Kildare and Carlow doesn't face any of them. What's worse is that both Carlow and Longford once they are eliminated should just lose the remainder of their matches to get an easy draw the next season.
I don't like a 12 game season where only 12 of the 32 teams qualify. At week 6 you'll have a tonne of teams with practically 0 chance of progression playing for nothing.
This is where the tiering aspect makes sense.
It's not to reduce strong v weak matches, it's to be able to grow the number of games that are meaningful without just adding a load of dead rubbers that no one wants to play.
When you have a top tier there's the threat of relegation to be avoided, that makes games meaningful for those out of contention for honours.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4221 - 07/07/2018 09:39:26
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Connaught: Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo
Munster: Kerry, Cork, Clare, Tipperary
Leinster I: Dublin, Louth, Westmeath, Offaly
Leinster II: Kildare, Meath, Longford, Laois
Ulster I: Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Fermanagh
Ulster II: Tyrone, Donegal, Down, Derry
Remaining counties in a football McDonagh Cup with promotion/relegation to/from provincial championships.
- Provincial semi-finals in Leinster and Ulster.
- Provincial finals in all provinces.
- Top 2 from the 6 groups into Final 16
- 6 third placed teams to play off for 3 Final 16 spots.
- Football McDonagh Cup winner to take the 16th Final 16 spot.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/07/2018 19:10:29
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't dislike a lack of round robin purity.
I just like meritocracy.
So I don't like when competitions are organised on a global basis ie anyone in the league can play anyone else but then for that league to have multiple ladders.
I dislike the NFL structure for instance.
You have the 32 teams all play a mix of matches but then they have 8 tables. It means that a team with a 7-9 record can progress at the expense of a team with a 9-7 record. It's doubly compounded in the NFL because the team with the 7-9 record has objectively played a weaker schedule since they've played 6 matches against teams in their weak 4 team division.
I also dislike that in preventing strong versus weak match ups that tanking in one season is incentivised to get an easier schedule for the following season.
I also think the avoidance of strong v weak is not necessary and your solution to avoiding one sided matches doesn't tally with reality.
Right now there are 2 teams (Kerry and Dublin) that will pretty easily beat all but the top 5-10. Kerry this year destroyed Cork a top 10 team. Last season Dublin hammered Monaghan, Tyrone and Kildare all 4-10 ranked teams. In your system Dublin still play teams around 17-24 4 times in a season. So they'll have 4 games against teams of the Longford/Offaly/Sligo variety. I don't mind that per se, I just don't get the logic that Longford can be allowed to face all of Kerry, Dublin, Cork, Kildare and Carlow doesn't face any of them. What's worse is that both Carlow and Longford once they are eliminated should just lose the remainder of their matches to get an easy draw the next season.
I don't like a 12 game season where only 12 of the 32 teams qualify. At week 6 you'll have a tonne of teams with practically 0 chance of progression playing for nothing.
This is where the tiering aspect makes sense.
It's not to reduce strong v weak matches, it's to be able to grow the number of games that are meaningful without just adding a load of dead rubbers that no one wants to play.
When you have a top tier there's the threat of relegation to be avoided, that makes games meaningful for those out of contention for honours." You make some good points, which I rebutt as follows -
US NFL - I view the structure as akin to the World Cup or Champions League with 8 groups of 4, except all play 16 matches, in lieu of 3 or 6. While the 3 or 6 is a common schedule played by all in a group, 14 of 16 matches in the NFL are also common to each team in a div/group. The two 'odd' matches are against teams in the same position in the prior year, so all 32 play a balanced 4x 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams. The 7-9 advancing in lieu of 9-7 is similar to World Cup - a group with 3x 1-2 teams will have one 2nd placed team advancing, while another with 3x 2-1 would send one (3rd) home - but is this still not fair ? You seem to support 'wild cards' here for the NFL and the World Cup a la Shara.
Tanking - In my 2x16 Conferences, I did suggest a Tier 2 Cup for 7th to 10th, 12th or 14th as well, which I would hope provides incentive to strive rather than tank. You have proposed 2x16 tiered leagues in the past with 6 of top 16 advancing - dead rubber risk should be similar after 6 of 15 rds as it is 6 of 12. In my Confs, I'd except the top third to strive for two byes, middle third to strive for top 6 and lower third for Tier 2 KO berths.
Only 2/few strong - As you have mentioned before, no format can overcome the lack of competitve depth problem. Currently, there is a top tier of 1, followed by another of 3 or 4 & 3rd of possibly 7.
Avoid Strong v Weak - Next season the 20th ranked team will play the top 4 in the English Prem League - but 21st plays none of them. This reflects a tiered structure - a line is drawn somewhere and could be beyond the competitive boundary (low Prem teams fight the drop as title ambitions are beyond them). My Confs attempt to blend this tiering, along with inclusion of teams 'beyond the bounds' as well (e.g. top rank v 24th) - I just happen to draw the line there. I try to design a structure that might last, rather than reflect that only one team is currently capable of winning national titles.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 09/07/2018 01:48:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "Connaught: Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo
Munster: Kerry, Cork, Clare, Tipperary
Leinster I: Dublin, Louth, Westmeath, Offaly
Leinster II: Kildare, Meath, Longford, Laois
Ulster I: Monaghan, Cavan, Armagh, Fermanagh
Ulster II: Tyrone, Donegal, Down, Derry
Remaining counties in a football McDonagh Cup with promotion/relegation to/from provincial championships.
- Provincial semi-finals in Leinster and Ulster.
- Provincial finals in all provinces.
- Top 2 from the 6 groups into Final 16
- 6 third placed teams to play off for 3 Final 16 spots.
- Football McDonagh Cup winner to take the 16th Final 16 spot." I think this is your masterpiece !
Joe Mc Cup champ or finalists go up to Prov group the next year as well ?
All that's left is to turn your 8x4 into a 'US NFL-style' season-long regular season, leading to your Prov and AI KO matches :)
When can we expect GAA approval - 2020 ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2582 - 09/07/2018 02:07:59
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