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Replying To Furlong1949: "I would say the physicality and the high scoring game would suit the Irish mentality. And we have produced a high number of great players for our size as a country.
Always followed rubgy back in the bad old days. I think any sort of talk about the game being the peoples game is nonsense. 80% of the Irish team are from fee paying school. There are morw GAA clubs in county Cork then there are rubgy clubs in the whole Island of Ireland. There are around 12500 underage soccer clubs, 12000 GAA underage clubs and around 500 underage rugby clubs. Many other stats would show up the idea that rugby is the peoples game. What is certain there has been a spread and growth into more GAA areas and the Irish rugby team are very popular. Probaly the number 1 popular team in the country. 20 years ago the rugby team was well down the list compared to Jacks soccer heroes. The sucess of the team, great players like O Driscoll who became respected and famous throughout the land have all led to the growth in popularity.
There was always a strong crossover of GAA fans supporters following rugby. Many older traditional gaa fans would have hated soccer but followed rugby. The game was played by amateurs had a physicality that soccer didn't. And it was a competition where you could play and beat England every year. Don't underestimate the importance that beating the auld enemy has for many Irish people.
The six nations is also a well respected and popular competition and has a long tradition. And gives us a chance of beating England in competition every year. And this has always had a revelance for Irish people. The same way the scots Welsh French and Germans like to beat English sports teams , the Irish are no different.
A few criticisms of rugby
1 The new modern game has become less skilful. Years ago players had to try and weave past opponents. Now players ram and batter into each other much more, they dont avoid the oppossing player. Years ago great skilful Irish players like Paul Dean Kieth Crossan Simon Geoghan Brendan Mullins Hugo McNeill and the great Mike Gibson always were skilful ducking and diving and weaving past players. Now the game has become much more physical and way to physical at times which will mean allot of the modern rugby players will have bodies like wrecks in older age. The game is not as skilful as it once was. The physicality of the game is now so important.
2 You do get the feeling that the next sport drugs contervesey in the next 15 or 20 years will be surroundinv rugby. It was obvious before Armstrong was found out there was serious questions marks over him. Its pretty obvious that asking players such size to batter each week in week out. That there is an underlying issue underneath regards of the welfare of players. And rumours and stories of drugs in rugby will become a bigger story in years to come.
3 There is a serious lack of criticism of rugby.
Soccer has Dunphy GAA has Brolly, rugby pundits say all the say the same thing. Every Irish player is called world class. The Irish times and Irish Independent label every player who play for leinster and Munster is a legend. And every Irish rugby player is world class. The critical anaylsis of rubgy is very poor. GAA teams get dogs abuse and so do soccer teams and especially the Irish soccer team. When the rubgy team is beaten the reaction is almost dismayed non criticism. Its almost as if ex players are afraid to say anything negative about current Irish teams
I enjoy reading about sports. I used to enjoy reading rugby commentary in this country. Reporters and journalist back them wrote in detail about rugby with great anaylsis. Now I avoid the Irish media when they talk about rugby especially when we lose. There is a serious lack of insight and anaylsis and almost fear to criticise the rugby team. So instead I read English Welsh and Scotish newspapers and rugby journalist to get a better insight. One of things that is very common when they talk about our rugby team that is rarely mentiones in this country. Is the Irish rugby team is seen an underachievers. They r seen as crackinf under pressure. They are seen as the Spurs of Rugby a tendency to choke in big games.
We probably should have won more with the golden generation. We had a better team then Wales but Wales were more sucessful. And all Irish teams in every sport and Irish sportswomen and men dont suit being favourites. Being the underdog does not suit us. The Rugby team is no different. Our record not to win any World cup knockout games, big grand slam matchs v England at the start of the 00s and Wales at the end of the 00s. loses to Wales in 11 WC q final and Argentine in 15 WC w final , loss to Scotland last year abd even this years performance in Paris before Sextons piece genius are some of the big games we underperformed under pressure.
4 We have overachieved with the amount of great players we have producd. For a country our size the number of great players we have produced is outstanding. Just look at Ireland contribution to the lions throughout the years. Much bigger then Scotland and even probaly bigger then Wales and as important as England. Some the Great Irish players we have produced are Jack Kyle Karl Mullen Mike Gibson Tom Kiernan Fergus Slattery Moss Keane Willie Duggan Wille Joe McBride Ollie Campbell Ciaran Fitzgerald Donal Lenihan Paul Dean Brendan Mullin Simon Geoghan Nick Popplewell Brian Discroll Ronan O Gara Paul O Connell Peter Clohessey Johnny Sexton Conor Murray and many more.
But as team or country we have massively underachieved. Our record in rugby where there is really only 8 competitive team in the world at any given time , our record is very poor to the say the least.
1 grand slam in 70 years 2 grand slams in 130 years is very poor. Where there is only 5 teams and now 6, 2 grand slams is a very poor return. England France Wales are well ahead in terms of the trophies even Scotlsnd have a better record with their 3 Grand Slams to our 2 Grand Slams.
2 Up to 2000 we were the whipping boys of rugby. After our greatest team the 49 grand slam winners. We declined badly in the 50s and this continued into 60s. We couldnt win in Twickenham for 11 years in this period. In the 70s we had a good team potentially and maybe we could won the grand slam in early 70s when Scotland and Wales didnt play in Dublin in 72 because of the troubles. But the fact is the 70s was a poor period also with year after defeat to Wales. In the 80s our form was schrphrenic. Triple Crown one year 82 and 85, followed by the wooden spoon the year after. The 90s was shambolic. Hammering after hammering in Paris. We couldnt beat Scotland for 12 years from 88 to 2000. Beating Wales in Cardiff and the odd memorable win v England were the only things that were good in that era. Since 2000 we have been more competitive and have won trophies but still our record can be patchy.
3 It took 130 year to beat the All Blacks I know they hard to beat. But that is an apalling record. Wales were beating the All Blacks 80 or 90s years before us. And it took us to beat them in USA to beat them first.
4 Our record in Worlds cup is embarrassing. Never to win a quater final to win a knock match at 8 attempts in 25 years , never to get past the last 8 of a competitiin where there is only 8 competitive teams in the world is shocking. Irish teams crashing at World Cup is crazy. In 91 v Australia we blew after Hamilton amazing try. In 2007 with the golden generation embarrassing performances to Georgia. 2011, 2015 defeats to Wales and Argentine again showed the rugby team choking under the pressure.
Im sure many wouldnt want to hear some of the above but there is a truth to saying our record as a rugby country is one of underachievement . While great Coaches like Warren Gatland Eddie Sullivan Declan Kidney Joe Schmidt and great players like O Driscoll O Connell O Gara and Sexton have brought rugby to a new level of sucess we still should have done better for example in the World Cups. And if we dont win the Grand Slam this year it would be another missed chance. As England are not playing well. And we have a much better team then Scotland." Easy for you to say
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8590 - 13/03/2018 01:14:28
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I would say the physicality and the high scoring game would suit the Irish mentality. And we have produced a high number of great players for our size as a country.
Always followed rugby back in the bad old days. I think any sort of talk about the game being the peoples game is nonsense. 80% of the Irish team are from fee paying school. There are morw GAA clubs in county Cork then there are rubgy clubs in the whole Island of Ireland. There are around 12500 underage soccer clubs, 12000 GAA underage clubs and around 500 underage rugby clubs. Many other stats would show up the idea that rugby is the peoples game. What is certain there has been a spread and growth into more GAA areas and the Irish rugby team are very popular. Probaly the number 1 popular team in the country. 20 years ago the rugby team was well down the list compared to Jacks soccer heroes. The sucess of the team, great players like O Driscoll who became respected and famous throughout the land have all led to the growth in popularity.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 Is there 12000 gaa clubs or is there not some hurling only and gaelic only clubs in that figure?
Yes there is far more gaa and soccer clubs but in some areas some clubs dont field underage teams and that affects number of clubs as all the kids in locality are playing rugby in school.
There was always a strong crossover of GAA fans supporters following rugby. Many older traditional gaa fans would have hated soccer but followed rugby. The game was played by amateurs had a physicality that soccer didn't. And it was a competition where you could play and beat England every year. Don't underestimate the importance that beating the auld enemy has for many Irish people.
The six nations is also a well respected and popular competition and has a long tradition. And gives us a chance of beating England in competition every year. And this has always had a revelance for Irish people. The same way the scots Welsh French and Germans like to beat English sports teams , the Irish are no different. fair points no criticism of what you're saying here.
A few criticisms of rugby
1 The new modern game has become less skilful. Years ago players had to try and weave past opponents. Now players ram and batter into each other much more, they dont avoid the oppossing player. Years ago great skilful Irish players like Paul Dean Kieth Crossan Simon Geoghan Brendan Mullins Hugo McNeill and the great Mike Gibson always were skilful ducking and diving and weaving past players. Now the game has become much more physical and way to physical at times which will mean allot of the modern rugby players will have bodies like wrecks in older age. The game is not as skilful as it once was. The physicality of the game is now so important.
2 You do get the feeling that the next sport drugs contervesey in the next 15 or 20 years will be surroundinv rugby. It was obvious before Armstrong was found out there was serious questions marks over him. Its pretty obvious that asking players such size to batter each week in week out. That there is an underlying issue underneath regards of the welfare of players. And rumours and stories of drugs in rugby will become a bigger story in years to come.
3 There is a serious lack of criticism of rugby.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 The modern game hasnt necessarily become less skillful. Defences are far more organised but players abilities to exploit space is still as high/higher.
When do you say there is a lack of criticism. What exactly do you want from the media?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 10:23:31
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Soccer has Dunphy GAA has Brolly, rugby pundits say all the say the same thing. Every Irish player is called world class. The Irish times and Irish Independent label every player who play for leinster and Munster is a legend. And every Irish rugby player is world class. The critical anaylsis of rubgy is very poor. GAA teams get dogs abuse and so do soccer teams and especially the Irish soccer team. When the rubgy team is beaten the reaction is almost dismayed non criticism. Its almost as if ex players are afraid to say anything negative about current Irish teams
I enjoy reading about sports. I used to enjoy reading rugby commentary in this country. Reporters and journalist back them wrote in detail about rugby with great anaylsis. Now I avoid the Irish media when they talk about rugby especially when we lose. There is a serious lack of insight and anaylsis and almost fear to criticise the rugby team. So instead I read English Welsh and Scotish newspapers and rugby journalist to get a better insight. One of things that is very common when they talk about our rugby team that is rarely mentiones in this country. Is the Irish rugby team is seen an underachievers. They r seen as crackinf under pressure. They are seen as the Spurs of Rugby a tendency to choke in big games.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 Rugby pundits dont always say the same thing. Every irish player isnt called world class. please stop the hyperbole. There is plenty of analysis and critical coverage of rugby. Look at Liam Toland, Murray Kinsella amongst many others.
Ex players are often very critical of the team and tactics.
We probably should have won more with the golden generation. We had a better team then Wales but Wales were more sucessful. And all Irish teams in every sport and Irish sportswomen and men dont suit being favourites. Being the underdog does not suit us. The Rugby team is no different. Our record not to win any World cup knockout games, big grand slam matchs v England at the start of the 00s and Wales at the end of the 00s. loses to Wales in 11 WC q final and Argentine in 15 WC w final , loss to Scotland last year abd even this years performance in Paris before Sextons piece genius are some of the big games we underperformed under pressure.
4 We have overachieved with the amount of great players we have producd. For a country our size the number of great players we have produced is outstanding. Just look at Ireland contribution to the lions throughout the years. Much bigger then Scotland and even probaly bigger then Wales and as important as England. Some the Great Irish players we have produced are Jack Kyle Karl Mullen Mike Gibson Tom Kiernan Fergus Slattery Moss Keane Willie Duggan Wille Joe McBride Ollie Campbell Ciaran Fitzgerald Donal Lenihan Paul Dean Brendan Mullin Simon Geoghan Nick Popplewell Brian Discroll Ronan O Gara Paul O Connell Peter Clohessy Johnny Sexton Conor Murray and many more.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 we probably should have won more in the 2000s but we kept losing out to france and were unlucky to not even get championships. in the 2010s we've been lucky enough to just edge teams out and get championships.
our record in world cups is poor but we are going right way with way the last two world cups have went in terms of winning pools but we need a quarter final win in japan next year.
We havent at all provided more to the Lions than Wales.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 10:29:37
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But as team or country we have massively underachieved. Our record in rugby where there is really only 8 competitive team in the world at any given time , our record is very poor to the say the least.
1 grand slam in 70 years 2 grand slams in 130 years is very poor. Where there is only 5 teams and now 6, 2 grand slams is a very poor return. England France Wales are well ahead in terms of the trophies even Scotlsnd have a better record with their 3 Grand Slams to our 2 Grand Slams.
2 Up to 2000 we were the whipping boys of rugby. After our greatest team the 49 grand slam winners. We declined badly in the 50s and this continued into 60s. We couldnt win in Twickenham for 11 years in this period. In the 70s we had a good team potentially and maybe we could won the grand slam in early 70s when Scotland and Wales didnt play in Dublin in 72 because of the troubles. But the fact is the 70s was a poor period also with year after defeat to Wales. In the 80s our form was schrphrenic. Triple Crown one year 82 and 85, followed by the wooden spoon the year after. The 90s was shambolic. Hammering after hammering in Paris. We couldnt beat Scotland for 12 years from 88 to 2000. Beating Wales in Cardiff and the odd memorable win v England were the only things that were good in that era. Since 2000 we have been more competitive and have won trophies but still our record can be patchy.
3 It took 130 year to beat the All Blacks I know they hard to beat. But that is an apalling record. Wales were beating the All Blacks 80 or 90s years before us. And it took us to beat them in USA to beat them first.
4 Our record in Worlds cup is embarrassing. Never to win a quater final to win a knock match at 8 attempts in 25 years , never to get past the last 8 of a competitiin where there is only 8 competitive teams in the world is shocking. Irish teams crashing at World Cup is crazy. In 91 v Australia we blew after Hamilton amazing try. In 2007 with the golden generation embarrassing performances to Georgia. 2011, 2015 defeats to Wales and Argentine again showed the rugby team choking under the pressure.
Im sure many wouldnt want to hear some of the above but there is a truth to saying our record as a rugby country is one of underachievement . While great Coaches like Warren Gatland Eddie Sullivan Declan Kidney Joe Schmidt and great players like O Driscoll O Connell O Gara and Sexton have brought rugby to a new level of sucess we still should have done better for example in the World Cups. And if we dont win the Grand Slam this year it would be another missed chance. As England are not playing well. And we have a much better team then Scotland.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 Why does the number of grand slams matter? Theyre the same as a championship.
There isnt only 8 competitive teams at any one time. please name them as you're bound to miss out on a few.
The 90s was our worst decade by far. we were disgracefully bad. No question
New Zealand have a ridiculous record against everyone. Their worst win percentage against any country is South Africa and thats a 60% win record. Only 7 countries have ever beaten them.
Our world cup record is poor but were some of those defeats choking or simply being beaten by better teams?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 10:41:40
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Well this is a daft thread now. Rugby is not the game of the people, and never will be. Silly posts back and forth, and I am a rugby fan Ormond.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7891 - 13/03/2018 11:47:24
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Well this is a daft thread now. Rugby is not the game of the people, and never will be. Silly posts back and forth, and I am a rugby fan Ormond.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 5701 - 13/03/2018 11:47:24 what exactly is a game of the people anyway and where have i said that it was such?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 12:22:42
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The GAA needs to do more to support An Gaeilge, in my opinion. The only decent coverage of GAA comes from TG4. Spoirt Beo, Laochra Gaeil are examples. RTE and TV3 don't give any coverage really. So come on GAA bí ag caint Gaeilge.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2519 - 13/03/2018 13:10:37
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'The People's Game' has to be without a shadow of a doubt is the ploughing championships :)
In 2014 the event attracted a record 279,500 visitors, 281,000 in 2015, 283,000 in 2016 and 291,500 in 2017....you don't get that at a soccer ball, football , hurling or rugby match !
I can hear ormondbannerman typing now ready to give me the third degree :)
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ormondbannerman what do you think our chances are this weekend against England ... Personal at the start of the six nations campaign i didn't think we would win in twickenham... Now England a wounded animal with back to back defeats i am more nervous than ever ! Plus they will have revenge on their minds from last year were we beat them and denied them the grand slam...are you confident
WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - Posts: 876 - 13/03/2018 14:05:46
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@whythelongface
will give thoughts on the 6 nations game in the 6 nations thread not here
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 15:38:36
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I would say 9 competitive nations.
1(1) New Zealand 93.99 rating points
2(3) IRELAND 87.85
3(2) England 87.50
4(4) Australia 85.49
5(6) South Africa 83.81
6(5) Scotland 83.80
7(7) Wales 83.07
8(10) France 79.44
9(8) Argentina 78.22
10(9) Fiji 77.93
11(11) Japan 75.66
12(12) Georgia 73.80
13(13) Tonga 71.87
14(14) Italy 71.13
15(15) USA 69.23
keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 13/03/2018 18:50:10
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Replying To ormondbannerman: " But as team or country we have massively underachieved. Our record in rugby where there is really only 8 competitive team in the world at any given time , our record is very poor to the say the least.
1 grand slam in 70 years 2 grand slams in 130 years is very poor. Where there is only 5 teams and now 6, 2 grand slams is a very poor return. England France Wales are well ahead in terms of the trophies even Scotlsnd have a better record with their 3 Grand Slams to our 2 Grand Slams.
2 Up to 2000 we were the whipping boys of rugby. After our greatest team the 49 grand slam winners. We declined badly in the 50s and this continued into 60s. We couldnt win in Twickenham for 11 years in this period. In the 70s we had a good team potentially and maybe we could won the grand slam in early 70s when Scotland and Wales didnt play in Dublin in 72 because of the troubles. But the fact is the 70s was a poor period also with year after defeat to Wales. In the 80s our form was schrphrenic. Triple Crown one year 82 and 85, followed by the wooden spoon the year after. The 90s was shambolic. Hammering after hammering in Paris. We couldnt beat Scotland for 12 years from 88 to 2000. Beating Wales in Cardiff and the odd memorable win v England were the only things that were good in that era. Since 2000 we have been more competitive and have won trophies but still our record can be patchy.
3 It took 130 year to beat the All Blacks I know they hard to beat. But that is an apalling record. Wales were beating the All Blacks 80 or 90s years before us. And it took us to beat them in USA to beat them first.
4 Our record in Worlds cup is embarrassing. Never to win a quater final to win a knock match at 8 attempts in 25 years , never to get past the last 8 of a competitiin where there is only 8 competitive teams in the world is shocking. Irish teams crashing at World Cup is crazy. In 91 v Australia we blew after Hamilton amazing try. In 2007 with the golden generation embarrassing performances to Georgia. 2011, 2015 defeats to Wales and Argentine again showed the rugby team choking under the pressure.
Im sure many wouldnt want to hear some of the above but there is a truth to saying our record as a rugby country is one of underachievement . While great Coaches like Warren Gatland Eddie Sullivan Declan Kidney Joe Schmidt and great players like O Driscoll O Connell O Gara and Sexton have brought rugby to a new level of sucess we still should have done better for example in the World Cups. And if we dont win the Grand Slam this year it would be another missed chance. As England are not playing well. And we have a much better team then Scotland.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 Why does the number of grand slams matter? Theyre the same as a championship.
There isnt only 8 competitive teams at any one time. please name them as you're bound to miss out on a few.
The 90s was our worst decade by far. we were disgracefully bad. No question
New Zealand have a ridiculous record against everyone. Their worst win percentage against any country is South Africa and thats a 60% win record. Only 7 countries have ever beaten them.
Our world cup record is poor but were some of those defeats choking or simply being beaten by better teams?" 1 Compare how the Irish rubgy is criticised to how Martin O Neills soccer team . When the soccer loses there is meltdown agmost media and fans. Compare how Sdhmits sucessful but very conservative style of play is not really criticised compared to how Jack Chartlons sucessful but conservative style of play was heavily criticised. Anytime a county is knocked out of the championship in a big game there is uproar and post mortems going on for months in the county. look at how your own Davy Fitz was heavily criticised in Clare. There is a massive difference in how the rugby team is criticised lightly compared to the over the top criticism of Irish soccer team and GAA teams.
2 We have contributed massively to the Lions. From Wilie John McBride leadership of the greatest lions team ever The Invincbles in the 70s, Tony O Reillys top lions try score ever, O Driscoll and O Connells captaincy and performances of Murray and Furlong this summer and many more examples.
3 It is not really a World Cup. There is closer to ten competitive teams then 20. Leave out South Africa Nambia, there is no rugby in Africa. leave out Argentina there is no rugby in South America or Central America. USA and Canada are amateurs and for most US sports fans they would never watched a game in their lives. In European coutries like Belgium Holland Austria Greece and Germany rubgy and most Eastern and central Europe ( Leaving out Russia and Romania) rugby is not a popular at all. And leaving out Japan and Pacific Islands and Australia and New Zealand in Asia China and India rugby is not a sport. So the vast majority of Europe, basically nearly all of south America and Central America and basically nearly all of Africa and the vast majority of Asia the sport of rugby is not sport at and is not played or popular. Its not a proper world cup when 70 to 80% of the world have not watched a game. And yet we have never won a knock-out match. We choked in 2007. Dont tell me Nambia Georgia and Argentina were better teams. We had our greatest team ever. We choked in 2011 when we had better team then Wales. In 2015 we had a better team then Argentina. Maybe 2 or 3 World cup no shows but 8 World Cup disasters , we are like the England soccer team who also choke at World Cups. In 1987 1991 1995 1999 2003 2007 2011 2015 no knockout wins . If a club gaa team had that record they would be heavily criticised.
4 Its not just the 90s. We were awful for decades.
1 We couldnt win in Paris for 30 years, 3 wins in Paris in 40 years.
2 We couldnt beat the Scots between 1988 and 2000.
3 When we won the Triple Crown in 1982 it was our first Triple Crown in 33 years. Basically we could beat three teams in any give year for 33 years.
4 In the 70s we didnt win 1 Triple Crown even. We couldnt beat the Welsh in the 70s.
5 In the 60s we didnt one Triple Crown even . And couldnt beat the English for 12 years.
6 In the 20s 30s and 50s no Triple Crowns eitheir . We didnt win 1 Triple Crown between 1898 and to 1949. We didnt win a Triple Crown for 50 years.
7
England have 13 Grand Slam 25 Triple Crowns
France have Grand 9 Slams
Wales have 11 Grand Slams 21 Triple Crowns
Scotland have 3 Grand Slams 12 Triple Crown
Ireland have 2 Grand Slams 9 Triple Crowns
The stats dont lie we were the whipping boys of rugby up to 2000. We were the Italy of rubgy in five nations prior to 2000.
We have improved immensely with great coachs eg Gatland Sullivan Kidney Scdmit and great players like O Connell O Gara Sexton O Driscoll. But we should have won more then Wales in late 00s. And if we lose at weekend when England are out of sorts and France and Wales also are in a bad shape. We wouldnt get a better chance to win Grand Slam. If we don't win again its another example of choking under the pressure. We are the Spurs of rubgy. But you cannot criticise the rugby team. Only soccer and gaa teams.
Hopefully we do. And if they it will be one of the best achievements in Irish sport. But if we dont they should be criticised.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01
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plenty of COI primary schools play GAA
rugby is more or less confined to fee paying secondary schools
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts: 541 - 13/03/2018 19:41:48
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1 Compare how the Irish rubgy is criticised to how Martin O Neills soccer team . When the soccer loses there is meltdown agmost media and fans. Compare how Sdhmits sucessful but very conservative style of play is not really criticised compared to how Jack Chartlons sucessful but conservative style of play was heavily criticised. Anytime a county is knocked out of the championship in a big game there is uproar and post mortems going on for months in the county. look at how your own Davy Fitz was heavily criticised in Clare. There is a massive difference in how the rugby team is criticised lightly compared to the over the top criticism of Irish soccer team and GAA teams.
2 We have contributed massively to the Lions. From Wilie John McBride leadership of the greatest lions team ever The Invincbles in the 70s, Tony O Reillys top lions try score ever, O Driscoll and O Connells captaincy and performances of Murray and Furlong this summer and many more examples.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01That the media doesnt go into complete shitstorm with the way they do when the soccer team loses isnt a bad thing.
Schmidts play hasnt been criticised in some parts of media because he was coach of Leinster and they want to keep links/sources in irish set up.
I dont see why rugby being criticised lightly is a bad thing when compared to the criticism of hurling/gaelic/soccer.
People say there's a bias in the media towards rugby but overall in general the rugby media arent that negative towards the sport compared to some of the irish media in soccer and a lot of media in gaa.
Never said we didnt contribute massively to Lions as with 4 nations involved of course all 4 will have contributed hugely.
3 It is not really a World Cup. There is closer to ten competitive teams then 20. Leave out South Africa Nambia, there is no rugby in Africa. leave out Argentina there is no rugby in South America or Central America. USA and Canada are amateurs and for most US sports fans they would never watched a game in their lives. In European coutries like Belgium Holland Austria Greece and Germany rubgy and most Eastern and central Europe ( Leaving out Russia and Romania) rugby is not a popular at all. And leaving out Japan and Pacific Islands and Australia and New Zealand in Asia China and India rugby is not a sport. So the vast majority of Europe, basically nearly all of south America and Central America and basically nearly all of Africa and the vast majority of Asia the sport of rugby is not sport at and is not played or popular. Its not a proper world cup when 70 to 80% of the world have not watched a game. And yet we have never won a knock-out match. We choked in 2007. Dont tell me Nambia Georgia and Argentina were better teams. We had our greatest team ever. We choked in 2011 when we had better team then Wales. In 2015 we had a better team then Argentina. Maybe 2 or 3 World cup no shows but 8 World Cup disasters , we are like the England soccer team who also choke at World Cups. In 1987 1991 1995 1999 2003 2007 2011 2015 no knockout wins . If a club gaa team had that record they would be heavily criticised.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01It is a world cup. There certainly is rugby in Africa apart from South Africa and Namibia. Zimbabwe, Kenya are quite strong but for political reasons a lot of top zimbabwaens play for South Africa not their home country.
My brother lives in Holland and rugby is quite popular. And improving year on year.
There is rugby in South/Central america beyond Argentina. Chile, Uruguay are very good in next tier of sides.
german rugby is increasingly popular. The owner of capri sun is backing team and they'll be close to challenge cup soon enough.
The tv figures go against your argument that 70-80% of world havent watched a game.
We didnt choke in 2007. We prepped wrong. That isnt choking. Our prep was shite.
4 Its not just the 90s. We were awful for decades.
1 We couldnt win in Paris for 30 years, 3 wins in Paris in 40 years.
2 We couldnt beat the Scots between 1988 and 2000.
3 When we won the Triple Crown in 1982 it was our first Triple Crown in 33 years. Basically we could beat three teams in any give year for 33 years.
4 In the 70s we didnt win 1 Triple Crown even. We couldnt beat the Welsh in the 70s.
5 In the 60s we didnt one Triple Crown even . And couldnt beat the English for 12 years.
6 In the 20s 30s and 50s no Triple Crowns eitheir . We didnt win 1 Triple Crown between 1898 and to 1949. We didnt win a Triple Crown for 50 years.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01We couldnt win in Paris for years but how many other sides win very regularly there. We didnt beat Scots in that period but they won several championships in that period and you are talking about probably the worst time in irelands international rugby history.
We have improved immensely with great coachs eg Gatland Sullivan Kidney Scdmit and great players like O Connell O Gara Sexton O Driscoll. But we should have won more then Wales in late 00s. And if we lose at weekend when England are out of sorts and France and Wales also are in a bad shape. We wouldnt get a better chance to win Grand Slam. If we don't win again its another example of choking under the pressure. We are the Spurs of rubgy. But you cannot criticise the rugby team. Only soccer and gaa teams.
Hopefully we do. And if they it will be one of the best achievements in Irish sport. But if we dont they should be criticised.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01We maybe should have won more in the 2000s but france were a bogey side. We'd have won multiple championships/grand slams but for them. If we lose next weekend we are not chokers. All depends on how the game goes. And i havent said the team shouldnt be criticised but its the make up of the criticism that is the issue.
plenty of COI primary schools play GAA
rugby is more or less confined to fee paying secondary schools
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts: 508 - 13/03/2018 19:41:48 No it isnt. You havent been to a lot of the country if you think thats the case. Look at the Connacht schools finals and you will see differently. Look at the numbers of clubs and standard of rugby in the clubs(youths) competitions in Munster.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 20:17:18
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "1 Compare how the Irish rubgy is criticised to how Martin O Neills soccer team . When the soccer loses there is meltdown agmost media and fans. Compare how Sdhmits sucessful but very conservative style of play is not really criticised compared to how Jack Chartlons sucessful but conservative style of play was heavily criticised. Anytime a county is knocked out of the championship in a big game there is uproar and post mortems going on for months in the county. look at how your own Davy Fitz was heavily criticised in Clare. There is a massive difference in how the rugby team is criticised lightly compared to the over the top criticism of Irish soccer team and GAA teams.
2 We have contributed massively to the Lions. From Wilie John McBride leadership of the greatest lions team ever The Invincbles in the 70s, Tony O Reillys top lions try score ever, O Driscoll and O Connells captaincy and performances of Murray and Furlong this summer and many more examples.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01That the media doesnt go into complete shitstorm with the way they do when the soccer team loses isnt a bad thing.
Schmidts play hasnt been criticised in some parts of media because he was coach of Leinster and they want to keep links/sources in irish set up.
I dont see why rugby being criticised lightly is a bad thing when compared to the criticism of hurling/gaelic/soccer.
People say there's a bias in the media towards rugby but overall in general the rugby media arent that negative towards the sport compared to some of the irish media in soccer and a lot of media in gaa.
Never said we didnt contribute massively to Lions as with 4 nations involved of course all 4 will have contributed hugely.
3 It is not really a World Cup. There is closer to ten competitive teams then 20. Leave out South Africa Nambia, there is no rugby in Africa. leave out Argentina there is no rugby in South America or Central America. USA and Canada are amateurs and for most US sports fans they would never watched a game in their lives. In European coutries like Belgium Holland Austria Greece and Germany rubgy and most Eastern and central Europe ( Leaving out Russia and Romania) rugby is not a popular at all. And leaving out Japan and Pacific Islands and Australia and New Zealand in Asia China and India rugby is not a sport. So the vast majority of Europe, basically nearly all of south America and Central America and basically nearly all of Africa and the vast majority of Asia the sport of rugby is not sport at and is not played or popular. Its not a proper world cup when 70 to 80% of the world have not watched a game. And yet we have never won a knock-out match. We choked in 2007. Dont tell me Nambia Georgia and Argentina were better teams. We had our greatest team ever. We choked in 2011 when we had better team then Wales. In 2015 we had a better team then Argentina. Maybe 2 or 3 World cup no shows but 8 World Cup disasters , we are like the England soccer team who also choke at World Cups. In 1987 1991 1995 1999 2003 2007 2011 2015 no knockout wins . If a club gaa team had that record they would be heavily criticised.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01It is a world cup. There certainly is rugby in Africa apart from South Africa and Namibia. Zimbabwe, Kenya are quite strong but for political reasons a lot of top zimbabwaens play for South Africa not their home country.
My brother lives in Holland and rugby is quite popular. And improving year on year.
There is rugby in South/Central america beyond Argentina. Chile, Uruguay are very good in next tier of sides.
german rugby is increasingly popular. The owner of capri sun is backing team and they'll be close to challenge cup soon enough.
The tv figures go against your argument that 70-80% of world havent watched a game.
We didnt choke in 2007. We prepped wrong. That isnt choking. Our prep was shite.
4 Its not just the 90s. We were awful for decades.
1 We couldnt win in Paris for 30 years, 3 wins in Paris in 40 years.
2 We couldnt beat the Scots between 1988 and 2000.
3 When we won the Triple Crown in 1982 it was our first Triple Crown in 33 years. Basically we could beat three teams in any give year for 33 years.
4 In the 70s we didnt win 1 Triple Crown even. We couldnt beat the Welsh in the 70s.
5 In the 60s we didnt one Triple Crown even . And couldnt beat the English for 12 years.
6 In the 20s 30s and 50s no Triple Crowns eitheir . We didnt win 1 Triple Crown between 1898 and to 1949. We didnt win a Triple Crown for 50 years.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01We couldnt win in Paris for years but how many other sides win very regularly there. We didnt beat Scots in that period but they won several championships in that period and you are talking about probably the worst time in irelands international rugby history.
We have improved immensely with great coachs eg Gatland Sullivan Kidney Scdmit and great players like O Connell O Gara Sexton O Driscoll. But we should have won more then Wales in late 00s. And if we lose at weekend when England are out of sorts and France and Wales also are in a bad shape. We wouldnt get a better chance to win Grand Slam. If we don't win again its another example of choking under the pressure. We are the Spurs of rubgy. But you cannot criticise the rugby team. Only soccer and gaa teams.
Hopefully we do. And if they it will be one of the best achievements in Irish sport. But if we dont they should be criticised.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 286 - 13/03/2018 19:23:01We maybe should have won more in the 2000s but france were a bogey side. We'd have won multiple championships/grand slams but for them. If we lose next weekend we are not chokers. All depends on how the game goes. And i havent said the team shouldnt be criticised but its the make up of the criticism that is the issue.
plenty of COI primary schools play GAA
rugby is more or less confined to fee paying secondary schools
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts: 508 - 13/03/2018 19:41:48 No it isnt. You havent been to a lot of the country if you think thats the case. Look at the Connacht schools finals and you will see differently. Look at the numbers of clubs and standard of rugby in the clubs(youths) competitions in Munster." The fact is compared to soccer competitively and sorry but Germany Holland Kenya and Chile are not competitive un rugby terms. Kilkenny footballers would be more competitive in the senior football championship then the above. Imagine if England played Germany in rubgy they would be up 200 points by half time. Only a couple of counties around 15 play the game anyway decent.
We did choke in 2007. like the English soccer team in 2010..Both called the golden generation. Nambia and Georgia performances were embarrassing. Like we did with Hamiltons try in 91 and 95 and 99 and 2003 and 2007 and 2011 and 2015. We have found it hard with the favourite tag. Remeber collapsing v England and Wales in grand slam deciders in early 00s and 2007. The Welsh English and Scots all believed Irish underachievered in the 00s . The general feeling up to lately was Irish rugby team falter to deceive. I have read that over and over again. But never in the Irish media. We are the spurs of rugby. Thats what they say. Hopefully we dont mess up again at the weekend and blow it again.
The 90s was not the worst period in Irish rugby history leaving out the grand slam winners in 1949 the worst period in Irish history is from 1900 to 1981 . In 81 years we only won 1 Triple Crown. In 81 years we only defeated England Scotland and Wales in 1 year once in 81 years. The 20s and 30s was awful period in Irish rugby just as bad as the 90s. The 50s and 60s way worse then the 90s. At least we defeated England in the 90s. We couldnt defeat them for 12 years in 50s and 60s. In the 60s we won 5 wooden spoons 3 in a row wooden spoons in 1961 1962 1963. In the 70s was just as bad as the 90s. Only for the teams of 1949 and 1982 and 1985. Irish rugby would have won nothing up to 2000. We were the Italy of the the five nations for over 100 years in European rubgy. Do you know the beatings Italy get now we used to get them for decades.
Even before the 90s we were regular winners of the wooden spoon. A wooden spoon is basically a whitewash of loses. Basically finish last and lose all your games . It was first given in 1910 and between 1910 and 1990 we won the wooden spoon 18 times. So that means for 80 years nearly a 1/5 of those years we lost every match in the season. Rugby country we are not. We have improved greatly since 2000 with great players and great managers and great wins but what happened in the 90s was happening pretty much what happened for the previous 80 years. We were the Italy of the 5 nations. Thats a fact.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17
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The fact is compared to soccer competitively and sorry but Germany Holland Kenya and Chile are not competitive un rugby terms. Kilkenny footballers would be more competitive in the senior football championship then the above. Imagine if England played Germany in rubgy they would be up 200 points by half time. Only a couple of counties around 15 play the game anyway decent.
We did choke in 2007. like the English soccer team in 2010..Both called the golden generation. Nambia and Georgia performances were embarrassing. Like we did with Hamiltons try in 91 and 95 and 99 and 2003 and 2007 and 2011 and 2015. We have found it hard with the favourite tag. Remeber collapsing v England and Wales in grand slam deciders in early 00s and 2007. The Welsh English and Scots all believed Irish underachievered in the 00s . The general feeling up to lately was Irish rugby team falter to deceive. I have read that over and over again. But never in the Irish media. We are the spurs of rugby. Thats what they say. Hopefully we dont mess up again at the weekend and blow it again.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17I said improving. Your analogy about Kilkenny is completely off.
We didnt choke in 2007. In the pool stage we were beaten by Argentinian and french sides that reached the semis. Losing to them isnt choking.
And fuck this if im going to go on about a world cup over 10 years ago.
The 90s was not the worst period in Irish rugby history leaving out the grand slam winners in 1949 the worst period in Irish history is from 1900 to 1981 . In 81 years we only won 1 Triple Crown. In 81 years we only defeated England Scotland and Wales in 1 year once in 81 years. The 20s and 30s was awful period in Irish rugby just as bad as the 90s. The 50s and 60s way worse then the 90s. At least we defeated England in the 90s. We couldnt defeat them for 12 years in 50s and 60s. In the 60s we won 5 wooden spoons 3 in a row wooden spoons in 1961 1962 1963. In the 70s was just as bad as the 90s. Only for the teams of 1949 and 1982 and 1985. Irish rugby would have won nothing up to 2000. We were the Italy of the the five nations for over 100 years in European rubgy. Do you know the beatings Italy get now we used to get them for decades.Everyone involved in the game far more talks about the 90s being far worse than any other decade. You talk as if we should be beating England all the time when they beat us in every metric of the game
Even before the 90s we were regular winners of the wooden spoon. A wooden spoon is basically a whitewash of loses. Basically finish last and lose all your games . It was first given in 1910 and between 1910 and 1990 we won the wooden spoon 18 times. So that means for 80 years nearly a 1/5 of those years we lost every match in the season. Rugby country we are not. We have improved greatly since 2000 with great players and great managers and great wins but what happened in the 90s was happening pretty much what happened for the previous 80 years. We were the Italy of the 5 nations. Thats a fact.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17the phrase rugby country is stupid. Its brilliant marketing as it gets people like you knickers in a twist.
What happened in 90s was not what had happened in previous years. If you only take into account the 5 nations and not the time before france joined then we have a very similar record to the scots. Its not been great managers that have been difference since 2000s its been good coaches.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 13/03/2018 21:46:25
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "The fact is compared to soccer competitively and sorry but Germany Holland Kenya and Chile are not competitive un rugby terms. Kilkenny footballers would be more competitive in the senior football championship then the above. Imagine if England played Germany in rubgy they would be up 200 points by half time. Only a couple of counties around 15 play the game anyway decent.
We did choke in 2007. like the English soccer team in 2010..Both called the golden generation. Nambia and Georgia performances were embarrassing. Like we did with Hamiltons try in 91 and 95 and 99 and 2003 and 2007 and 2011 and 2015. We have found it hard with the favourite tag. Remeber collapsing v England and Wales in grand slam deciders in early 00s and 2007. The Welsh English and Scots all believed Irish underachievered in the 00s . The general feeling up to lately was Irish rugby team falter to deceive. I have read that over and over again. But never in the Irish media. We are the spurs of rugby. Thats what they say. Hopefully we dont mess up again at the weekend and blow it again.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17I said improving. Your analogy about Kilkenny is completely off.
We didnt choke in 2007. In the pool stage we were beaten by Argentinian and french sides that reached the semis. Losing to them isnt choking.
And fuck this if im going to go on about a world cup over 10 years ago.
The 90s was not the worst period in Irish rugby history leaving out the grand slam winners in 1949 the worst period in Irish history is from 1900 to 1981 . In 81 years we only won 1 Triple Crown. In 81 years we only defeated England Scotland and Wales in 1 year once in 81 years. The 20s and 30s was awful period in Irish rugby just as bad as the 90s. The 50s and 60s way worse then the 90s. At least we defeated England in the 90s. We couldnt defeat them for 12 years in 50s and 60s. In the 60s we won 5 wooden spoons 3 in a row wooden spoons in 1961 1962 1963. In the 70s was just as bad as the 90s. Only for the teams of 1949 and 1982 and 1985. Irish rugby would have won nothing up to 2000. We were the Italy of the the five nations for over 100 years in European rubgy. Do you know the beatings Italy get now we used to get them for decades.Everyone involved in the game far more talks about the 90s being far worse than any other decade. You talk as if we should be beating England all the time when they beat us in every metric of the game
Even before the 90s we were regular winners of the wooden spoon. A wooden spoon is basically a whitewash of loses. Basically finish last and lose all your games . It was first given in 1910 and between 1910 and 1990 we won the wooden spoon 18 times. So that means for 80 years nearly a 1/5 of those years we lost every match in the season. Rugby country we are not. We have improved greatly since 2000 with great players and great managers and great wins but what happened in the 90s was happening pretty much what happened for the previous 80 years. We were the Italy of the 5 nations. Thats a fact.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17the phrase rugby country is stupid. Its brilliant marketing as it gets people like you knickers in a twist.
What happened in 90s was not what had happened in previous years. If you only take into account the 5 nations and not the time before france joined then we have a very similar record to the scots. Its not been great managers that have been difference since 2000s its been good coaches." The 60s was a worst decade then 90s 3 wooden spoons in a row. We couldnt beat England for 12 years. People keep saying 90s because they remember the 90s..But look at the records. Its in black and white its factual to say we were awful in the 1920s 1930s 1950s 1960s 1970s some of the 1980s and the 1990s. It happened.
Scotland were more sucessful then Ireland before 2000 .
Before 2000 Scotland had 3 Grand Slams to our 1 Grand Slam. Scotland were more sucessful. We couldnt beat them for 12 years between 1988 and 2000. The same way we couldnt beat the Welsh in the 70s.
Before 2000 from.1900 to 2000 in a 100 years of rugby Scotland won 9 Triple Crowns Ireland won 4 Triple Crowns.
So Scotland won more grand slams and twice as many Triple Crowns .
You keep ignoring the facts and stats. We werent sucessful before 2000 and we were the whipping boys of rugby. You cannot change the results of the past. This is what happened. Just proves my point that people wouldnt listen to any criticism of rugby. Even though our fecord is poor and the results and achievements of Irish rugby prove that. 2 Triple Crowns in 81 years from 1900 to 1981 thats a fact. Its appalling record. To beat three teams twice in near 100 years. But this is what happened. Im not making it up. Its a fact. But even when you give the facts people wouldnt listen to facts because it is criticising rugby.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 13/03/2018 23:02:15
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Replying To Furlong1949: " Replying To ormondbannerman: " But as team or country we have massively underachieved. Our record in rugby where there is really only 8 competitive team in the world at any given time , our record is very poor to the say the least.
1 grand slam in 70 years 2 grand slams in 130 years is very poor. Where there is only 5 teams and now 6, 2 grand slams is a very poor return. England France Wales are well ahead in terms of the trophies even Scotlsnd have a better record with their 3 Grand Slams to our 2 Grand Slams.
2 Up to 2000 we were the whipping boys of rugby. After our greatest team the 49 grand slam winners. We declined badly in the 50s and this continued into 60s. We couldnt win in Twickenham for 11 years in this period. In the 70s we had a good team potentially and maybe we could won the grand slam in early 70s when Scotland and Wales didnt play in Dublin in 72 because of the troubles. But the fact is the 70s was a poor period also with year after defeat to Wales. In the 80s our form was schrphrenic. Triple Crown one year 82 and 85, followed by the wooden spoon the year after. The 90s was shambolic. Hammering after hammering in Paris. We couldnt beat Scotland for 12 years from 88 to 2000. Beating Wales in Cardiff and the odd memorable win v England were the only things that were good in that era. Since 2000 we have been more competitive and have won trophies but still our record can be patchy.
3 It took 130 year to beat the All Blacks I know they hard to beat. But that is an apalling record. Wales were beating the All Blacks 80 or 90s years before us. And it took us to beat them in USA to beat them first.
4 Our record in Worlds cup is embarrassing. Never to win a quater final to win a knock match at 8 attempts in 25 years , never to get past the last 8 of a competitiin where there is only 8 competitive teams in the world is shocking. Irish teams crashing at World Cup is crazy. In 91 v Australia we blew after Hamilton amazing try. In 2007 with the golden generation embarrassing performances to Georgia. 2011, 2015 defeats to Wales and Argentine again showed the rugby team choking under the pressure.
Im sure many wouldnt want to hear some of the above but there is a truth to saying our record as a rugby country is one of underachievement . While great Coaches like Warren Gatland Eddie Sullivan Declan Kidney Joe Schmidt and great players like O Driscoll O Connell O Gara and Sexton have brought rugby to a new level of sucess we still should have done better for example in the World Cups. And if we dont win the Grand Slam this year it would be another missed chance. As England are not playing well. And we have a much better team then Scotland.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 279 - 12/03/2018 23:05:01 Why does the number of grand slams matter? Theyre the same as a championship.
There isnt only 8 competitive teams at any one time. please name them as you're bound to miss out on a few.
The 90s was our worst decade by far. we were disgracefully bad. No question
New Zealand have a ridiculous record against everyone. Their worst win percentage against any country is South Africa and thats a 60% win record. Only 7 countries have ever beaten them.
Our world cup record is poor but were some of those defeats choking or simply being beaten by better teams?" 1 Compare how the Irish rubgy is criticised to how Martin O Neills soccer team . When the soccer loses there is meltdown agmost media and fans. Compare how Sdhmits sucessful but very conservative style of play is not really criticised compared to how Jack Chartlons sucessful but conservative style of play was heavily criticised. Anytime a county is knocked out of the championship in a big game there is uproar and post mortems going on for months in the county. look at how your own Davy Fitz was heavily criticised in Clare. There is a massive difference in how the rugby team is criticised lightly compared to the over the top criticism of Irish soccer team and GAA teams. 2 We have contributed massively to the Lions. From Wilie John McBride leadership of the greatest lions team ever The Invincbles in the 70s, Tony O Reillys top lions try score ever, O Driscoll and O Connells captaincy and performances of Murray and Furlong this summer and many more examples. 3 It is not really a World Cup. There is closer to ten competitive teams then 20. Leave out South Africa Nambia, there is no rugby in Africa. leave out Argentina there is no rugby in South America or Central America. USA and Canada are amateurs and for most US sports fans they would never watched a game in their lives. In European coutries like Belgium Holland Austria Greece and Germany rubgy and most Eastern and central Europe ( Leaving out Russia and Romania) rugby is not a popular at all. And leaving out Japan and Pacific Islands and Australia and New Zealand in Asia China and India rugby is not a sport. So the vast majority of Europe, basically nearly all of south America and Central America and basically nearly all of Africa and the vast majority of Asia the sport of rugby is not sport at and is not played or popular. Its not a proper world cup when 70 to 80% of the world have not watched a game. And yet we have never won a knock-out match. We choked in 2007. Dont tell me Nambia Georgia and Argentina were better teams. We had our greatest team ever. We choked in 2011 when we had better team then Wales. In 2015 we had a better team then Argentina. Maybe 2 or 3 World cup no shows but 8 World Cup disasters , we are like the England soccer team who also choke at World Cups. In 1987 1991 1995 1999 2003 2007 2011 2015 no knockout wins . If a club gaa team had that record they would be heavily criticised. 4 Its not just the 90s. We were awful for decades. 1 We couldnt win in Paris for 30 years, 3 wins in Paris in 40 years. 2 We couldnt beat the Scots between 1988 and 2000. 3 When we won the Triple Crown in 1982 it was our first Triple Crown in 33 years. Basically we could beat three teams in any give year for 33 years. 4 In the 70s we didnt win 1 Triple Crown even. We couldnt beat the Welsh in the 70s. 5 In the 60s we didnt one Triple Crown even . And couldnt beat the English for 12 years. 6 In the 20s 30s and 50s no Triple Crowns eitheir . We didnt win 1 Triple Crown between 1898 and to 1949. We didnt win a Triple Crown for 50 years. 7 England have 13 Grand Slam 25 Triple Crowns France have Grand 9 Slams Wales have 11 Grand Slams 21 Triple Crowns Scotland have 3 Grand Slams 12 Triple Crown Ireland have 2 Grand Slams 9 Triple Crowns The stats dont lie we were the whipping boys of rugby up to 2000. We were the Italy of rubgy in five nations prior to 2000. We have improved immensely with great coachs eg Gatland Sullivan Kidney Scdmit and great players like O Connell O Gara Sexton O Driscoll. But we should have won more then Wales in late 00s. And if we lose at weekend when England are out of sorts and France and Wales also are in a bad shape. We wouldnt get a better chance to win Grand Slam. If we don't win again its another example of choking under the pressure. We are the Spurs of rubgy. But you cannot criticise the rugby team. Only soccer and gaa teams. Hopefully we do. And if they it will be one of the best achievements in Irish sport. But if we dont they should be criticised."
It's easier for the rugby media to put a positive gloss on things because the vast majority of people who watch rugby on TV and consume it on radio, newspapers and social media aren't that knowledgeable about the game. Of course rugby people are and they can tell when there's a spin put on a story. Like last year in the build up to the Scotland game there was a lot of expectation but was mainly because they had beaten the All Blacks in Chicago. A knowledgeable rugby person would have been wary of that hype. Even Willie John McBride on Off the Ball tonight said it's great that this Irish team can play well with this hype. But, as Ormond says, it's good to have a positive spin rather than a negative one. It's true that the IRFU aren't short of cash but they market the game well. You'll often hear Leinster rugby on the radio plugging a game that they want to sell more tickets for. How often do the GAA have advertising trying to get more into the games, especially for Croke Park where there's a good catchment of neutral GAA/ sportsmad people / tourists who might bring in a few more quid for the GAA and businesses close to Croke Park? It seems to be an unwritten code for some GAA people that it is wrong to take ideas from other sports like rugby, soccer or basketball, I think that that's wrong and a great organisation that we have is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face. Doesn't happen as much at grassroots level where clubs have to deal with realities of fundraising to survive. The suits on Croke Park are accountable to no-one.
The line is often repeated here that if there's a melee at a GAA match the media make a massive bad news story of it but if a similar thing happened at a rugby match it'd barely be mentioned. It's true, it happens. But they're not comparing like with like. Hurling and gaelic football are skillsbased games. Rugby has skills but physical confrontation and hurting your opponent, hitting them so hard they won't want to get up again, is one of the objects of the game. So physical encounters are part and parcel of the game and always have been. They look more brutal nowadays because professional players are way up the level of strength and conditioning and for my mind in many ways it was a better game to watch a few years ago.
There are more GAA and soccer people than rugby people, by that I mean those that are knowledgeable about their game. So I think it's easier to give a good news story, plus a bit of spin, to an unknowledgeable audience. But they're also getting kids involved in schools and it's up to them to later decide what sport, if any, they would like to pursue. I just wish the GAA would stop thinking that they're still the only show in town and get kids more involved.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 13/03/2018 23:46:57
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "The fact is compared to soccer competitively and sorry but Germany Holland Kenya and Chile are not competitive un rugby terms. Kilkenny footballers would be more competitive in the senior football championship then the above. Imagine if England played Germany in rubgy they would be up 200 points by half time. Only a couple of counties around 15 play the game anyway decent.
We did choke in 2007. like the English soccer team in 2010..Both called the golden generation. Nambia and Georgia performances were embarrassing. Like we did with Hamiltons try in 91 and 95 and 99 and 2003 and 2007 and 2011 and 2015. We have found it hard with the favourite tag. Remeber collapsing v England and Wales in grand slam deciders in early 00s and 2007. The Welsh English and Scots all believed Irish underachievered in the 00s . The general feeling up to lately was Irish rugby team falter to deceive. I have read that over and over again. But never in the Irish media. We are the spurs of rugby. Thats what they say. Hopefully we dont mess up again at the weekend and blow it again.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17I said improving. Your analogy about Kilkenny is completely off.
We didnt choke in 2007. In the pool stage we were beaten by Argentinian and french sides that reached the semis. Losing to them isnt choking.
And fuck this if im going to go on about a world cup over 10 years ago.
The 90s was not the worst period in Irish rugby history leaving out the grand slam winners in 1949 the worst period in Irish history is from 1900 to 1981 . In 81 years we only won 1 Triple Crown. In 81 years we only defeated England Scotland and Wales in 1 year once in 81 years. The 20s and 30s was awful period in Irish rugby just as bad as the 90s. The 50s and 60s way worse then the 90s. At least we defeated England in the 90s. We couldnt defeat them for 12 years in 50s and 60s. In the 60s we won 5 wooden spoons 3 in a row wooden spoons in 1961 1962 1963. In the 70s was just as bad as the 90s. Only for the teams of 1949 and 1982 and 1985. Irish rugby would have won nothing up to 2000. We were the Italy of the the five nations for over 100 years in European rubgy. Do you know the beatings Italy get now we used to get them for decades.Everyone involved in the game far more talks about the 90s being far worse than any other decade. You talk as if we should be beating England all the time when they beat us in every metric of the game
Even before the 90s we were regular winners of the wooden spoon. A wooden spoon is basically a whitewash of loses. Basically finish last and lose all your games . It was first given in 1910 and between 1910 and 1990 we won the wooden spoon 18 times. So that means for 80 years nearly a 1/5 of those years we lost every match in the season. Rugby country we are not. We have improved greatly since 2000 with great players and great managers and great wins but what happened in the 90s was happening pretty much what happened for the previous 80 years. We were the Italy of the 5 nations. Thats a fact.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 288 - 13/03/2018 21:26:17the phrase rugby country is stupid. Its brilliant marketing as it gets people like you knickers in a twist.
What happened in 90s was not what had happened in previous years. If you only take into account the 5 nations and not the time before france joined then we have a very similar record to the scots. Its not been great managers that have been difference since 2000s its been good coaches." I just didnt mention England I talked about 100 year of Irish results v every team.
1 France We didnt beat France in Paris for 28 years until O Driscolls magnificent performance in early 00s. From 1972 to early 00s we didnt beat the French once in France.
2 Wales We didnt beat Wales in Cardiff for 18 years. Between 1967 and 1985 we didnt beat the Welsh in Wales.
3 Scotland We didnt beat Scotland for 12 years between 1988 and 2000.
This is what happened..You keep cherrypicking 1 or 2 of my comments but ignoring 100 years or more of poor Irish results. 1 Grand Slam in over 120 years until we won our second grand Slam win in 2009 is poor. Wales have won 11 grand Slams. Grand Slams are the pinnacle of European rugby the same way All Ireland title is in GAA. From 1900 to 1981 we won two triple crown in 81 years where you had to beat only three teams. That is poor in anyones book. But again your just proving my point that people are reluctant to criticise rugby even when they are faced with 100 years of results.
2007 We were seen as favourites. This was the golden generation. Triple Crown winners and future Grand Slam winners. But against Nambia Georgia and Argentina we were awful. Anytime a team doesnt do well at tournament they blame the prep. The English soccer team in 2010 and the Irish soccer team in 2012 Euros both blamed their preparation. The fact is we were one of the favourites in 2007, people were saying we could win the World Cup and the pressure was to much. We dont suit been favourite tag better being underdogs but this is changing in recent years under the Scdmit era.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 14/03/2018 00:40:41
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I just didnt mention England I talked about 100 year of Irish results v every team.
1 France We didnt beat France in Paris for 28 years until O Driscolls magnificent performance in early 00s. From 1972 to early 00s we didnt beat the French once in France.
2 Wales We didnt beat Wales in Cardiff for 18 years. Between 1967 and 1985 we didnt beat the Welsh in Wales.
3 Scotland We didnt beat Scotland for 12 years between 1988 and 2000.
This is what happened..You keep cherrypicking 1 or 2 of my comments but ignoring 100 years or more of poor Irish results. 1 Grand Slam in over 120 years until we won our second grand Slam win in 2009 is poor. Wales have won 11 grand Slams. Grand Slams are the pinnacle of European rugby the same way All Ireland title is in GAA. From 1900 to 1981 we won two triple crown in 81 years where you had to beat only three teams. That is poor in anyones book. But again your just proving my point that people are reluctant to criticise rugby even when they are faced with 100 years of results.
2007 We were seen as favourites. This was the golden generation. Triple Crown winners and future Grand Slam winners. But against Nambia Georgia and Argentina we were awful. Anytime a team doesnt do well at tournament they blame the prep. The English soccer team in 2010 and the Irish soccer team in 2012 Euros both blamed their preparation. The fact is we were one of the favourites in 2007, people were saying we could win the World Cup and the pressure was to much. We dont suit been favourite tag better being underdogs but this is changing in recent years under the Scdmit era.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 293 - 14/03/2018 00:40:41The 90s was absolutely terrible for Ireland and the 5/6 nations has regularly had long periods of countries not winning in certain venues. Scottish/Welsh even french have went long periods without winning somewhere.
Rugby in Wales is the national sport and many of welsh grand slams were majorly good teams getting several like welsh teams in 1908/09/11 then 1950/52 then 1971/76/78
People involved in rugby are well capable of criticising the game maybe
2007 we were not seen as favourites. we were thought as of a side who could maybe get to a first semi final. and we were poor in the games. that was done to the prep. from only organising two warm up games and then scheduling a late game against a french club(bayonne) where o driscoll was taken out and many others were taken out but not to extreme odriscoll as. it was little to do were media pressure or whatever you want
between 1967 and 1985 how many other countries beat wales in wales?
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 14/03/2018 23:29:23
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "I just didnt mention England I talked about 100 year of Irish results v every team.
1 France We didnt beat France in Paris for 28 years until O Driscolls magnificent performance in early 00s. From 1972 to early 00s we didnt beat the French once in France.
2 Wales We didnt beat Wales in Cardiff for 18 years. Between 1967 and 1985 we didnt beat the Welsh in Wales.
3 Scotland We didnt beat Scotland for 12 years between 1988 and 2000.
This is what happened..You keep cherrypicking 1 or 2 of my comments but ignoring 100 years or more of poor Irish results. 1 Grand Slam in over 120 years until we won our second grand Slam win in 2009 is poor. Wales have won 11 grand Slams. Grand Slams are the pinnacle of European rugby the same way All Ireland title is in GAA. From 1900 to 1981 we won two triple crown in 81 years where you had to beat only three teams. That is poor in anyones book. But again your just proving my point that people are reluctant to criticise rugby even when they are faced with 100 years of results.
2007 We were seen as favourites. This was the golden generation. Triple Crown winners and future Grand Slam winners. But against Nambia Georgia and Argentina we were awful. Anytime a team doesnt do well at tournament they blame the prep. The English soccer team in 2010 and the Irish soccer team in 2012 Euros both blamed their preparation. The fact is we were one of the favourites in 2007, people were saying we could win the World Cup and the pressure was to much. We dont suit been favourite tag better being underdogs but this is changing in recent years under the Scdmit era.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 293 - 14/03/2018 00:40:41The 90s was absolutely terrible for Ireland and the 5/6 nations has regularly had long periods of countries not winning in certain venues. Scottish/Welsh even french have went long periods without winning somewhere.
Rugby in Wales is the national sport and many of welsh grand slams were majorly good teams getting several like welsh teams in 1908/09/11 then 1950/52 then 1971/76/78
People involved in rugby are well capable of criticising the game maybe
2007 we were not seen as favourites. we were thought as of a side who could maybe get to a first semi final. and we were poor in the games. that was done to the prep. from only organising two warm up games and then scheduling a late game against a french club(bayonne) where o driscoll was taken out and many others were taken out but not to extreme odriscoll as. it was little to do were media pressure or whatever you want
between 1967 and 1985 how many other countries beat wales in wales?" We will agree to disagree.
But I think if u asked anyone unbiased to look at our record pre 2000 the results show we were bottom of the table in the five nations with exception of late 40s and 82 and 85 and when we could have won grand slam in early 70s. Pre 2000 it was the plucky Irish with the garryowen and placinf the rugby ball under the jersey and give it a lash for 20 mins before we were beaten by English French Welsh and Scots. ( You ignored our 12 year lose to Scots and 30 year loses in Paris. I forgot the French were a bogey team. But so was everyone else.)
But thankfully men like Gatland Sullivan Kidney and now Scdmit and players like O Connell O Driscoll O Gara ended those performances and the days of plucky Irish have gone. While we should have won more with golden generation they did bring a more winning atitude ( even though our World Cup record was still embarrassing. Ok you have excuses for 2007. Whats your excuse for 1987 1991 1995 1999 2003 2011 and 2015. Was the preparation wrong in everyone of those world Cups. If it was 1 World cup but every single one is underperformers and no win past last 8 when when there is no more then 10 or 12 competitive teams in the competition. If a club team had that record it would be considered a joke).
But hopefully Scdmit gets that monkey of our back in 2019 and we long last win a knockout match and reach semis and seen we are on the easiers side of the draw reaching the final is possible. Winning a rugby world cup in the next 20 to 30 years should be possible with 3 to 4 big wins and ur champions.
Hopefully we do it on Sat . I am a rugby fan. Following the team long before the bandwagon beginning with Mick Doyles teams. Thats the way Irish teams should play. The rugby we played under the Great late Mick Doyle is the best we ever played creatively. The tries by Crossnan v Wales and Ringlsnd v Scotland in 85 are some of the best Irish scores ever. That would be my criticism of Sdmits Ireland it is very conservative. Its similar to Jack Chartlon. Both had the two best Irish panels ever. But both played a conservative way. Could Sdmits be more creative, of course he could. But u cannot argue with the results. Beating New Zealand and beating South Africa at home for the first time ever.
if we win in sat fingers crossed . It would be the greatest win in Irish rugby even surpassing 2009 by beating England in Twickenham to win Grand Slam . It would be one of the greatest achievements in Irish sport. And they will derserve enormous praise. But if they lose it is definitely one we have left behind again. With Wales and France having problems and England out of sorts and we being the best team in the championship. We should seal the deal on saturday. If a GAA team or Irish soccer team were in the same position they would be heavily criticised if they failed to get over the line. But excuses like preparation will be probaly used if we lose .
I am a rugby fan since 1985. Watched every match even the bad years. And its great to see Irish rugby at long last being so competitive and now even setting standards other counties cannot deal with. That is some turn around from the 100 years of rugby beforehand. They deserve enormous credit for that . The proviences IRFU the coachs and the players. But they are not above criticism. And I have no problem criticising my county team the Irish soccer team or my soccer club team. I just think rugby team is not above criticism. People shouldnt be afraid to criticise. Its part and parcell of any sport.
But it must be said the people games comment was ridiculous. The six nations is hugely popular and so is the rugby team. But on the ground and in peoples hearts gaa and soccer are ahead.As Brian O Driscoll one of our greatest rugby players and one our greatest sportsmen once said in New Zealand people love and are passionate about rugby. He said in Ireland we like our rugby and respect rugby but we are not in love or passionate about the game. The All Blacks are.Thats what BOD said..It pretty much sums up everything.
Anyway hopefully we do it on Saturday. I expect to win by 7 or 8 and be crowned undisputed European champions for the third time ever. Ireland Grand Slam Winners 2018.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 15/03/2018 15:08:10
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