National Forum

Are Umpires allowed call a foul handpass ?

(Oldest Posts First)

Strange incident in the Carlow Westmeath hurling game at the weekend.

Carlow 2 points down with 3 minutes to go and Marty Kavanagh breaks through on
goal with 2 Westmeath defenders chasing him. He gives a high handpass to Chris Nolan
who doubles on it from about 10 meters out straight into the net.

Ref doesnt blow for anything and Westmeath keeper is about to puck out the ball
when the goal umpire sticks out his hand and calls the ref in.

They chat and the goal is disallowed (apparently for a throw in the leadup)
but my question is can an umpire made a decision like this and overrule a refs decision.

No complaints about the result by the way as Westmeath were better team in second
half.

Just caused confusion in the stands between both sets of supporters.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 837 - 29/01/2018 14:15:26    2071959

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No they can't, both the ref and his umpires were wrong. Leave out the place on the pitch it occurred and the fact that the pass led to a score. It is the referees Job to award frees at the time they occur. If not then the only action can be to retrospectively discipline an offender during a break in play but this is only for aggressive fouls not technical ones.

Amazing the number of officials who get paid, but don't even know the rules

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 88 - 29/01/2018 15:55:22    2072024

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Replying To carlovia:  "Strange incident in the Carlow Westmeath hurling game at the weekend.

Carlow 2 points down with 3 minutes to go and Marty Kavanagh breaks through on
goal with 2 Westmeath defenders chasing him. He gives a high handpass to Chris Nolan
who doubles on it from about 10 meters out straight into the net.

Ref doesnt blow for anything and Westmeath keeper is about to puck out the ball
when the goal umpire sticks out his hand and calls the ref in.

They chat and the goal is disallowed (apparently for a throw in the leadup)
but my question is can an umpire made a decision like this and overrule a refs decision.

No complaints about the result by the way as Westmeath were better team in second
half.

Just caused confusion in the stands between both sets of supporters."
Wait a minute - you're saying an umpire actively watched what was happening on the pitch in front of him and proactively tried to influence the game from a regulatory point of view??? I've never even heard of the like of that before.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 408 - 29/01/2018 18:01:04    2072093

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Replying To Onfor15:  "No they can't, both the ref and his umpires were wrong. Leave out the place on the pitch it occurred and the fact that the pass led to a score. It is the referees Job to award frees at the time they occur. If not then the only action can be to retrospectively discipline an offender during a break in play but this is only for aggressive fouls not technical ones.

Amazing the number of officials who get paid, but don't even know the rules"
I had never seen it before and Kavanagh was adamant that he hadn't thrown it.

Just strange that the ref seemed to delegate such a decision to an umpire.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 837 - 29/01/2018 18:45:40    2072120

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Tomsmith here

Would it not be for the greater good that the umpire would bring the matter of a blatant foul to the Referees attention.
if he stood idly bye and did nothing youse would all cry foul
I often saw this in Cavan where the home umpire would advise the Referee of all matters and indeed quote the rules to him

tomsmith (Cavan) - Posts: 3163 - 29/01/2018 22:43:14    2072214

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No Tom, that would be a disaster. Referee decides on fouls, end of

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 88 - 29/01/2018 23:27:06    2072240

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Yes they are entitled to consult the umpires.

" To consult, on a needs basis, with a Linesman or Umpire(s) - where neutral - in order to establish matters of fact.
This shall include consultation concerning the validity of a score when the Referee is in doubt. "

Torcaill (Australia) - Posts: 200 - 29/01/2018 23:42:55    2072248

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Replying To Torcaill:  "Yes they are entitled to consult the umpires.

" To consult, on a needs basis, with a Linesman or Umpire(s) - where neutral - in order to establish matters of fact.
This shall include consultation concerning the validity of a score when the Referee is in doubt. ""
The ref had given the goal and was running back out for a puck out.

He didn't look to consult the umpire. Then the umpire put his hand out to alert the ref as if there had been foul play.

Then they consulted and the goal was disallowed so it was the umpire that initiated the decision.

Just never seen an umpire do it before without the ref going to them first.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 837 - 30/01/2018 12:14:24    2072339

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Replying To Torcaill:  "Yes they are entitled to consult the umpires.

" To consult, on a needs basis, with a Linesman or Umpire(s) - where neutral - in order to establish matters of fact.
This shall include consultation concerning the validity of a score when the Referee is in doubt. ""
So let's say Anthony Nash strikes a puck out to a corner back. The corner back throws the ball to the full back, who drives it up the field to the wing forward who strikes the ball over the bar. You reckon one of the umpires at Nash's end should be able to call the referee up and tell him he missed a foul pass in the build up?

It is not the umpires job to decide if a foul has been committed during play. Simple as that.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 88 - 30/01/2018 22:06:12    2072603

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Replying To Onfor15:  "So let's say Anthony Nash strikes a puck out to a corner back. The corner back throws the ball to the full back, who drives it up the field to the wing forward who strikes the ball over the bar. You reckon one of the umpires at Nash's end should be able to call the referee up and tell him he missed a foul pass in the build up?

It is not the umpires job to decide if a foul has been committed during play. Simple as that."
Read the rule. The referee may consult with the umpire / linesman if he deems necessary to do to so to ensure the correct decision is made. I did not say that the umpire could call the ref in to bring any foul play or technical infraction to his attention. Big difference between the two and the former is cover by the rule quoted.

Torcaill (Australia) - Posts: 200 - 01/02/2018 16:40:50    2073149

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The whole hand pass thing has become a bit of a joke; 99 percent of "hand passes" are thrown, so the danger of a referee deciding to give a foul for one opens him to accusations of in consistency or, worse, partiality. I think the rule should be changed to allow short passes to be thrown.

Midleton (Cork) - Posts: 570 - 01/02/2018 16:46:27    2073154

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The same umpire I beleive saw something Aaron Craig Westmeath wingback did unlike the referee or linesman which warranted a Red card.So here we have found a unique species an umpire taking an interest in what's going on.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 538 - 01/02/2018 16:56:14    2073157

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Umpires have little say when the game is in play.

I don't even think they can give a square ball unless the referee explicitly asks them.

I understand that the referee is the only one who can actually make a call, but in this instance where the umpire is alleged to have seen a throw pass the very least the referee should have done is consult with both linesmen who in the national leagues are qualified referees. If they thought the pass was fine then the goal should have stood.
I don't think the referee should have been making a technical decision based on a call by a person who's training to do so is limited to say the least.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2210 - 02/02/2018 11:22:46    2073339

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No, they're not.

Umpires are a scourge on the game and need to be eliminated. We should have a third and fourth linesman at either game. Umpires are unqualified, untrained and have no business in the game. The men in white coats need to be drummed out.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2187 - 02/02/2018 11:37:09    2073344

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Replying To bricktop:  "Umpires have little say when the game is in play.

I don't even think they can give a square ball unless the referee explicitly asks them.

I understand that the referee is the only one who can actually make a call, but in this instance where the umpire is alleged to have seen a throw pass the very least the referee should have done is consult with both linesmen who in the national leagues are qualified referees. If they thought the pass was fine then the goal should have stood.
I don't think the referee should have been making a technical decision based on a call by a person who's training to do so is limited to say the least."
So should referees consult with umpires and linesmen at every break in play to see if they spotted a foul? It would be some craic if an umpire refused to waive the flag for a score because Johnny took 5 steps in the build up instead of 4. It would make the game awful to follow. And a foul handpass is very subjective anyway, what one person might view as a throw another person might view as a fair handpass. The referee is the one who decides these things as they occur during the game, and it is up to him to make a judgement on these, not the umpire.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 88 - 02/02/2018 13:26:13    2073371

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