National Forum

Two Tier Competition

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To put structure to that idea -
Merge NFL, Prov Champs and AIC.
3-tier AIC/ NFL Finals following 3-tier Rd Robin.
NFL - Northwest Conference 16 - Uls, Conn, London and Louth - Divs 1, 2, 3 - of 4, 6, 6 teams.
Southeast Conference 16 - Lein, Muns less Louth less Kilkenny - also, Divs 1, 2, 3 - 4, 6, 6 teams.
NFL - 10 match regular season for all - Divs 2 and 3 play double round in own div/region - top 1 in each region to Div 2 or 3 Final; Div 1 plays double round own div/ region and single round other region - top 2 each region and 4 Prov Champs to AI QFs - byes for those doubling up.
Bottom team in 4 Div 1 and 2 groups go down; Top team in 4 Div 2 and 3 groups go up.
2nd in Div 2 in each region plays own region 3rd in Div 1 in 2 promo/relag playoffs.
Likewise, 2nd and 3rd in Div 3 v 5th and 4th in Div 2 in 4 intra regional promo/relag playoffs.
Separately, 8 Prov Finalists get byes to respective Prov SFs the following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1178 - 05/03/2018 04:56:57    2081881

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Replying To jimbodub:  "It needs to happen. Most counties are just cannon fodder for the top 5 teams and that will never change

There should be at a minimum 3 competitions

All Ireland Championship
Championship 2 (Insert GAA great name here)
Championship 3 (.. and again)

Similar to a proper league structure - based on points with home and away games against each team.

Champion for each comp who finishes with the best stats as per the norm

Ultimate prize = Sam and the title AI Chanpions. Team that goes unbeaten to claim Div 1 = Grand AI Champions

Champion goes up from comp 2/3 with a fine piece of silverware having played highly entertaining games against teams of similar standard.

Team at bottom goes down from each comp.

We already have the perfect structure to put all this talk to bed. The wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.

We just rejigger the current league system a bit."
Yeah something simple would make sense.

I think 2 divisions of 16 playing a single round robin with top 6 teams in each going through to playoffs would work well.

In hurling divisions of 12 with 4 teams moving on to the playoffs would work.

Very simple, proeven to work in so many other sports.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2005 - 05/03/2018 16:32:57    2081968

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Have counties from lower divisions said they'd be happy to play in a rwo or three tier championships structure? Maybe some would be happy with it but it will only increase the gap in standards between those at the top and the bottom. It would take a lot of thinking and planning, maybe in an off-championshio type of league mixing top and bottom to try somehow to narrow the standards gap. Perhaps some counties would be happy to fight for a lower standard third trophy?

I've not been a fan of the back door but for brief inconsistent times Sligo, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare and Fermanagh belied their divisional status and went far in some championships only to regress into the league system playing counties of a weak standard and no chance of improving. Tipperary and Clare are the recent teams to do well in championship but they have improved their level themselves hoping to get to Division 1. This years Munster Championship will be the best in years. I'm not a fan of Super 8 or a tiered championship. But at least if there's a plan that might be implemented they need to improve standards somehow, promotion and relegation from one tier to another just keeps the rich richer and the poor hungry. Not good for the GAA longterm.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 4547 - 05/03/2018 17:32:36    2081991

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Have counties from lower divisions said they'd be happy to play in a rwo or three tier championships structure? Maybe some would be happy with it but it will only increase the gap in standards between those at the top and the bottom. It would take a lot of thinking and planning, maybe in an off-championshio type of league mixing top and bottom to try somehow to narrow the standards gap. Perhaps some counties would be happy to fight for a lower standard third trophy?

I've not been a fan of the back door but for brief inconsistent times Sligo, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare and Fermanagh belied their divisional status and went far in some championships only to regress into the league system playing counties of a weak standard and no chance of improving. Tipperary and Clare are the recent teams to do well in championship but they have improved their level themselves hoping to get to Division 1. This years Munster Championship will be the best in years. I'm not a fan of Super 8 or a tiered championship. But at least if there's a plan that might be implemented they need to improve standards somehow, promotion and relegation from one tier to another just keeps the rich richer and the poor hungry. Not good for the GAA longterm."
I get what you are saying but I'm not really sure I agree.

So I'd be for tiering as little as possible but still providing teams with as many meaningful matches as possible.

So in the football you'd have the top 16, you'd have every one of those teams playing 15 matches against the best teams in the country.

The best division 2 teams will be playing against lesser teams and it will hamper them somewhat but if they get promoted they will themselves have 15 games the following season against better opposition to test themselves and improve.

The teams not competing for promotion are already playing against better teams in division 2.

It's not really about giving everyone a chance at winning. It's about giving teams more good quality matches.

I think the chance of a 15 game division 1 campaign for weaker counties is more beneficial than a 3 or 4 game run in the qualifiers.

A lot of the time qualifier runs are more to do with luck of the draw than about teams playing and beating teams above them.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2005 - 05/03/2018 19:55:01    2082029

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I get what you are saying but I'm not really sure I agree.

So I'd be for tiering as little as possible but still providing teams with as many meaningful matches as possible.

So in the football you'd have the top 16, you'd have every one of those teams playing 15 matches against the best teams in the country.

The best division 2 teams will be playing against lesser teams and it will hamper them somewhat but if they get promoted they will themselves have 15 games the following season against better opposition to test themselves and improve.

The teams not competing for promotion are already playing against better teams in division 2.

It's not really about giving everyone a chance at winning. It's about giving teams more good quality matches.

I think the chance of a 15 game division 1 campaign for weaker counties is more beneficial than a 3 or 4 game run in the qualifiers.

A lot of the time qualifier runs are more to do with luck of the draw than about teams playing and beating teams above them."
How is having Division 3 and 4 standard teams playing a league and championship against similarly poor standard teams going to give them more good quality matches?

You reckon those teams went far in those championships because of the luck of the draw. Seriously? Without checking I know a 14 man Sligo beat a very good Kildare team in their first championship win in Croke Park. Wexford beat Down on their run to the semis. Fermanagh beat Armagh in the 1/4 and we were blessed to get them to a replay. Tipp beat Galway in 1/4s. Some counties might be happy with a two or three tier but some like I mentioned above and earlier might thrive if there was a competition, outside championship, where they could improve against higher standard competition. But it seems nobody has asked them what they want.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 4547 - 05/03/2018 20:33:27    2082038

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "How is having Division 3 and 4 standard teams playing a league and championship against similarly poor standard teams going to give them more good quality matches?

You reckon those teams went far in those championships because of the luck of the draw. Seriously? Without checking I know a 14 man Sligo beat a very good Kildare team in their first championship win in Croke Park. Wexford beat Down on their run to the semis. Fermanagh beat Armagh in the 1/4 and we were blessed to get them to a replay. Tipp beat Galway in 1/4s. Some counties might be happy with a two or three tier but some like I mentioned above and earlier might thrive if there was a competition, outside championship, where they could improve against higher standard competition. But it seems nobody has asked them what they want."
A team like Antrim would get 15 games. Competitive games against plenty of teams who are better than them. They'd have an outside chance of promotion and playing 15 games against the best teams in the country.

That's way better than the handful of big games we've hand in the last 30 years.

In a 16 team division 2 right now you'd probably have 11 teams battling for 6 playoff spaces. The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.

If you had 3 up and 3 down there'd be plenty of movement between grades.

This season you'd have Louth playing matches against all the top teams. There's no way that's beyond any county that gets their act together.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2005 - 05/03/2018 22:02:14    2082074

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A team like Antrim would get 15 games. Competitive games against plenty of teams who are better than them. They'd have an outside chance of promotion and playing 15 games against the best teams in the country.

That's way better than the handful of big games we've hand in the last 30 years.

In a 16 team division 2 right now you'd probably have 11 teams battling for 6 playoff spaces. The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.

If you had 3 up and 3 down there'd be plenty of movement between grades.

This season you'd have Louth playing matches against all the top teams. There's no way that's beyond any county that gets their act together."
2 counties in 16 would possibly get into a top 16. Louth are zero from four in Division 2 so straight back down. That's hardly going to raise their standard consistenly now, is it?

'The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.' Big games??? Games against teams of a similarly poor standard.

Basically you're happy to see the top teams get stronger and the weak get weaker and that the GAA have no plans to do anything about the widening gap between top and bottom.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 4547 - 06/03/2018 00:17:57    2082102

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah something simple would make sense.

I think 2 divisions of 16 playing a single round robin with top 6 teams in each going through to playoffs would work well.

In hurling divisions of 12 with 4 teams moving on to the playoffs would work.

Very simple, proeven to work in so many other sports."
I would go for the 2x16 with a shorter regular season - say, each 16 forms 4 seeded pots - each team plays 3 of 4 from each pot in a 12-match regular season - top 10 to KO (6 bys) in each tier - 4 in Div 2 SFs go up.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1178 - 06/03/2018 01:24:50    2082108

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All considered, maybe 3 tiers is best - with 12, 10, 10 in divs 1, 2, 3 - playing 11, 9, 9 regular season games.
Divs 2, 3 - top 6 to KO playoffs - 2 byes - 2 finalists promoted.
Div 1 - top 6 to playoffs - 2 byes - 11th and 12th go down.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1178 - 06/03/2018 02:02:36    2082110

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Replying To jimbodub:  "It needs to happen. Most counties are just cannon fodder for the top 5 teams and that will never change

There should be at a minimum 3 competitions

All Ireland Championship
Championship 2 (Insert GAA great name here)
Championship 3 (.. and again)

Similar to a proper league structure - based on points with home and away games against each team.

Champion for each comp who finishes with the best stats as per the norm

Ultimate prize = Sam and the title AI Chanpions. Team that goes unbeaten to claim Div 1 = Grand AI Champions

Champion goes up from comp 2/3 with a fine piece of silverware having played highly entertaining games against teams of similar standard.

Team at bottom goes down from each comp.

We already have the perfect structure to put all this talk to bed. The wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.

We just rejigger the current league system a bit."
Based on current NFL - but each team plays 10 rather than 7 regular season games in a 4-tier AIC.
Have Northwest Conference 16 (Uls, Conn, London
Louth) split - 4 divs of 4.
Southeast 16 with similar 4x4.
Teams play 7 div opponents once and then own conference quartet once more.
1.5 up and down, promo/relag between intra conference groups.
Playoffs- 8 group winners to respective 4-tier AI Finals with 6 promoted as well; 8 4th placed done for the year and 6 go down; 8 2nd v 3rd placed playoffs.
Teams would scrap for 2nd place promotion playoff against upper tier to avoid 3rd place relagation tie with lower tier.
Plenty of opportunity to move up and down the grades with a changed variety of fixtures from year to year.
Alternative - For Tier 1 AIC (Sam), top 2 in each group join 4 Prov Champs (played separately) in AI QFs (double up for bye).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1178 - 06/03/2018 12:38:22    2082176

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "2 counties in 16 would possibly get into a top 16. Louth are zero from four in Division 2 so straight back down. That's hardly going to raise their standard consistenly now, is it?

'The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.' Big games??? Games against teams of a similarly poor standard.

Basically you're happy to see the top teams get stronger and the weak get weaker and that the GAA have no plans to do anything about the widening gap between top and bottom."
A promoted team like Louth get 15 games in one season against the top 16 teams in the country.

In the entire history of the qualifiers since 2001 how many championship games have Louth played against division 1 and 2 opposition? Without checking I'd make it somewhere around the 15-20 mark.

I just don't see how a full season of my new look division 1 isn't way better for these middling teams.

Yes they'll have a year or 2 away from the top tier but they are only ever 1 promotion away from going up.

I'd have 3 up 3 down to spread the love a bit.

Division 3 and 4 teams are not of uniform standard you know.

Antrim getting to play a season of games against Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Sligo and Wexford who are all better than us. It would do us the world of good.

I'd say we'd be way more likely to get guys out playing for us if that competition was on offer.

Armagh, Fermanagh, Longford, Derry probably don't get a lot out of it. They would all have a great shout at promotion though and 15 games against all the top teams.

Overall I think it would be beneficial across the board.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2005 - 06/03/2018 15:18:00    2082222

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while id be of the view that a 2nd tier competition makes sense , really works well at club level ,we have all seen grown men and women cry at county junior finals

that said i was at limerick v wexford football qualifer this year, the crowd at it was desperate, you felt for the player who are putting in an incredible effort

really made me wonder would the public support a 2nd tier comp.

youngmunstersman (Limerick) - Posts: 31 - 06/03/2018 22:39:13    2082347

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Replying To youngmunstersman:  "while id be of the view that a 2nd tier competition makes sense , really works well at club level ,we have all seen grown men and women cry at county junior finals

that said i was at limerick v wexford football qualifer this year, the crowd at it was desperate, you felt for the player who are putting in an incredible effort

really made me wonder would the public support a 2nd tier comp."
Yeah that is a big problem.

The best solution I can come up with is to try and create marquee fixtures as best as possible.

So the idea would be that you'd have local derbies on Bank Holiday weekends. Try to market GAA as a family centered day out.

I'd also put the championship 2 final on the same day as the championship final. You'd have tickets allocated to the championship 2 finalists but they'd be prioritised based on attendance at matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2005 - 07/03/2018 19:32:15    2082535

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To GreenandRed:  "2 counties in 16 would possibly get into a top 16. Louth are zero from four in Division 2 so straight back down. That's hardly going to raise their standard consistenly now, is it?

'The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.' Big games??? Games against teams of a similarly poor standard.

Basically you're happy to see the top teams get stronger and the weak get weaker and that the GAA have no plans to do anything about the widening gap between top and bottom."
A promoted team like Louth get 15 games in one season against the top 16 teams in the country.

In the entire history of the qualifiers since 2001 how many championship games have Louth played against division 1 and 2 opposition? Without checking I'd make it somewhere around the 15-20 mark.

I just don't see how a full season of my new look division 1 isn't way better for these middling teams.

Yes they'll have a year or 2 away from the top tier but they are only ever 1 promotion away from going up.

I'd have 3 up 3 down to spread the love a bit.

Division 3 and 4 teams are not of uniform standard you know.

Antrim getting to play a season of games against Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Sligo and Wexford who are all better than us. It would do us the world of good.

I'd say we'd be way more likely to get guys out playing for us if that competition was on offer.

Armagh, Fermanagh, Longford, Derry probably don't get a lot out of it. They would all have a great shout at promotion though and 15 games against all the top teams.

Overall I think it would be beneficial across the board."
Whammo here is Louth's record against Division One and Two teams in the qualifiers. Between 2001 and 2007 the league was split up as follows: 16 teams in Division One split in to A and B and the same in Division Two. From 2008 the leagues is what we have today with four divisions from one to four: I will start the qualifiers from 2008 because between 2001 and 2007 there were only Division One and Division Two. Any year I leave out Louth did not play a Division One or Two team in the qualifiers.

2008: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Tyrone who were in Division 1.
2010: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Dublin who were in Division 1.
2011: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Meath who were in Division 2.
2012: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Westmeath who were in Division 2.
2013: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Kildare who were in Division 1.
2014: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Tyrone who were in Division 1.
2016: Louth were in Division 4. Lost to Derry who were in Division 2.

Louth played seven times and lost each match.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 11454 - 07/03/2018 21:46:08    2082572

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Replying To OLLIE:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "2 counties in 16 would possibly get into a top 16. Louth are zero from four in Division 2 so straight back down. That's hardly going to raise their standard consistenly now, is it?

'The likes of Carlow would get big games against Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Westmeath. Antrim would have big games against Armagh, Fermanagh.' Big games??? Games against teams of a similarly poor standard.

Basically you're happy to see the top teams get stronger and the weak get weaker and that the GAA have no plans to do anything about the widening gap between top and bottom."
A promoted team like Louth get 15 games in one season against the top 16 teams in the country.

In the entire history of the qualifiers since 2001 how many championship games have Louth played against division 1 and 2 opposition? Without checking I'd make it somewhere around the 15-20 mark.

I just don't see how a full season of my new look division 1 isn't way better for these middling teams.

Yes they'll have a year or 2 away from the top tier but they are only ever 1 promotion away from going up.

I'd have 3 up 3 down to spread the love a bit.

Division 3 and 4 teams are not of uniform standard you know.

Antrim getting to play a season of games against Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Sligo and Wexford who are all better than us. It would do us the world of good.

I'd say we'd be way more likely to get guys out playing for us if that competition was on offer.

Armagh, Fermanagh, Longford, Derry probably don't get a lot out of it. They would all have a great shout at promotion though and 15 games against all the top teams.

Overall I think it would be beneficial across the board."
Whammo here is Louth's record against Division One and Two teams in the qualifiers. Between 2001 and 2007 the league was split up as follows: 16 teams in Division One split in to A and B and the same in Division Two. From 2008 the leagues is what we have today with four divisions from one to four: I will start the qualifiers from 2008 because between 2001 and 2007 there were only Division One and Division Two. Any year I leave out Louth did not play a Division One or Two team in the qualifiers.

2008: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Tyrone who were in Division 1.
2010: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Dublin who were in Division 1.
2011: Louth were in Division 3. Lost to Meath who were in Division 2.
2012: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Westmeath who were in Division 2.
2013: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Kildare who were in Division 1.
2014: Louth were in Division 2. Lost to Tyrone who were in Division 1.
2016: Louth were in Division 4. Lost to Derry who were in Division 2.

Louth played seven times and lost each match."]Presumably, in the 2001-07 era, any pairings with comparable Div One only were lost as well ?
To Wham's point, more frequent tough competition may breed more success.

As an example, Italy in Six Nations rugby were coming along for a while - ussd to win one match some years - although seems to have slipped back as of late.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1178 - 07/03/2018 22:25:04    2082585

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