legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 07/12/2017 22:07:47    2064642

I was musing over the following for football: Two-thirds of all counties should contest their provincial championships. One-third of all counties should make the All-Ireland series. This can be achieved as follows: Munster - 1 group of 4 (4 of 6 counties), Connaught - 1 group of 4 (4 of 6 counties), Ulster - 2 groups of 3 or 1 group of 6 (6 of 9 counties) and Leinster - 2 groups of 4 (8 of 11 counties (-Kilkenny)). 2 teams from Munster, 2 teams from Connaught, 3 teams from Ulster and 4 teams from Leinster should advance to the All-Ireland series. A 12th team in the All-Ireland series should be awarded to a Tier II winner consisting of all counties outside of the provincial championships. Provincial winners would qualify for the quarter-finals. 4 provincial runners-up would be drawn against the 4 non-provincial finalists in a play-off. The Tier II winner would have to be promoted to their provincial championship in the following year. The GAA in their greatness would have to sort out the finer details on how other Tier II teams would earn promotion to their provincial championship. They could have the Tier II level consist of 2 groups; Group I: 2 Connaught and 3 Ulster. Group II: 2 Munster and 3 Leinster. Top teams from both groups into the Tier II final and automatic promotion to their provincial championship in placed of the lowest team. The second placed teams in both groups could playoff against the next lowest teams in their provincial championship. New York and Kilkenny can be invited to join the tier II groups. The Ulster championship could be granted an exemption to allow 2 even groups of 4 as only 3 of the 9 would still be allowed to make the All-Ireland series and it would be lowering their chance of a Tier II winner. In such a scenario the Tier II groups could be; Group I: 2 Munster and 2 Connaught. Group II: 3 Leinster and 1 Ulster. Again, New York and Kilkenny would possibly be welcome to join the Tier II groups.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 09/12/2017 17:27:56    2064744

@legendzxix

Those formats would be improvements on what we are due to get.

I still think that it'd be better to have a league incorporated into the All Ireland series.

The 2 divisions of 16 could be improved upon.

14 team division 1 18 team division 2.

Division 1 single round robin

Division 2 Every team plays a 10 round schedule finishing with a 3 round playoff competition. A 16 team division 2 with a single round robin will have a lot of dead rubber games. Making it shorter would probably improve it.

I'd have top 6 playoff for the title. Top 10 remain in promotion contention. 2 finalists automatically promoted, 2 other teams play off against division 1 11th and 12th placed teams.

Top 6 from division 1 plus the division 2 champion into the All Ireland playoffs.

Week 1

Preliminary quarterfinal: 6th division 1 v Division 2 champion. (Neutral venue)
Quarterfinal 1: 4th division 1 at home to 5th division 1

Week 2

Quarterfinal 2: 3rd division 1 at home to Preliminary quarterfinal winner
Semifinal 1: 1st division 1 v winner quarterfinal 1 (Croke Park)

Week 3

Semifinal 2: 2nd division 2 v winner quarterfinal 2 (Croke Park)

Week 4

Free week (Hurling final)

Week 5

Football final

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 10/12/2017 17:33:36    2064786

You can't claim me for this ongoing discussion - you are just as addicted :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 10/12/2017 19:01:58    2064792

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 11/12/2017 01:14:07    2064807

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 11/12/2017 10:50:29    2064819

Lads, the league is not going to be combined with the championship. It is a complete waste of time to be going on about it. The football championship will consist of a provincial group stage or an All-Ireland series group stage. The league is not going to change that much. The football and hurling leagues are serving their purpose pre-championship. Hurling will have a provincial group stage next year. Football will have an All-Ireland series group stage. It will be interesting to see how both play out for real.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 11/12/2017 21:55:25    2064904

In football, if the choice is between provincial group stage or All-Ireland group stage, I think the Super 8 expanding to a Top 16 is the best approach. The top third from each province should make the final 16. I would suggest Ulster take in London and New York so that the 4 quarter-final winners of Ulster, 4/11, would qualify for the final 16.

Top third from each province qualifying for final 16:
Munster - 2/6, semi-final winners should be guaranteed final 16.
Connaugth - 2/5, semi-final winners should be guaranteed final 16.
Ulster - 4/11 (9 counties, London and New York), quarter-final winners should be guaranteed final 16.
Leinster - 4/11, quarter-final winners should be guaranteed final 16.

This would see 12 of the Top16 places taken from the provincial championships.

The remaining 20 teams, excluding New York who currently do not enter the qualifiers but they can be included, shall compete over 3 qualifying rounds:

20 teams vying for the final 4 Top 16 places:
Qualifier Round 1: 8 teams - 8 provincial preliminary round losers.
Qualifier Round 2: 16 teams 4 Qualifier Round 1 winners and 12 teams who lost in the Munster semi-finals, Connaught semi-finals, Ulster quarter-finals and Leinster quarter-finals.
Play-off Round: 8 teams - 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners. 4 winners into the Top 16.

With 12 places being rewarded through the provinces, it wouldn't really fit to have a second championship winner qualifying for the Top 16 group stage of the following year. The GAA could give all non-qualified counties the option to enter a second championship. The second championship winner could be guaranteed a Play-Off round spot in the following year as a token carrot for winning at that level. This would natually require some re-alignment of qualifiers:

20 teams vying for the final 4 Top 16 places: (Tier II winner receiving bye to play-off round)
Qualifier Round 1: 10 teams - 7 or 8 provincial preliminary round losers (excludes Tier II winner). 2 or 3 lowest placed league teams of the remaining 12 qualifier counties.
Qualifier Round 2: 9 teams - 5 Qualifier Round 1 winners and 9 or 10 of the 12 teams who lost in the Munster semi-finals, Connaught semi-finals, Ulster quarter-finals and Leinster quarter-finals.
Play-off Round: 8 teams - 1 Tier II winner from the previous year. 7 Qualifier Round 2 winners. 4 winners into the Top 16.

The All-Ireland winner could also be guaranteed a Play-Off round spot in the exceptional circumstance that they would also fail in qualifying for the Top 16 through their provincial championship in the following year. It would require a similar re-alignment as the previous two examples.

The Top 16 should be slotted into 4 groups of 4.
Seeds 1: Provincial champions.
Seeds 2: Provincial runners-up.
Seeds 3: Provincial semi-finalists of Ulster and Leinster.
Seeds 4: 4 Play-off Round winners.

Teams from Seeds 1 and Seeds 2 should contest their match in Croke Park.
Provincial winners should have home advantage against both of the lowest seeds.
All other teams should have one home game each.

- Provincial champions are rewarded with a game at Croke Park and 2 home games.
- Provincial runners-up are also rewarded with a game at Croke Park.
- All teams are guaranteed at least 1 home game in the group stage. This is a boost for provincial grounds.
- All-Ireland quarter-finals could be hosted by the group winners. This is also a boost for provincial grounds.

Format of Tier II:
Round 1: 16 teams - 16 teams failing to make the play-off round.
Round 2: 8 teams - 8 Round 1 winners.
Quarter-finals: 8 teams - 4 Play-off losers and 4 Round 2 winners.

- A Tier II competition guarantees all teams at least 3 games.
- Some will scoff at a Tier II but after 2 bites at the Top 16, they cannot complain too much.
- There's very little wiggle room for rewarding the Tier II winner. Guaranteeing a play-off spot in the following year and thus avoiding Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 seems a fair enough option.
- Ideally the Tier II final would be played in Croke Park.

New York and/or Kilkenny, if they had the appetite for it, could even enter the Tier II competition. They could take on the lowest Qualifier Round 1 loser(s) based on league placing in a preliminary round.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 12/12/2017 21:08:47    2065030

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 13/12/2017 01:31:33    2065053

I like US NFL style 8 Div of 4.
Each of 4 dvs contain two Prov SFs (two Provs) is drawn after Prov QFs are played.
Other 4 Divs each contains a beaten team from both Uls and Lein As.
Each plays 12 match regular season - two other divs, own div, and one extra game.
Top2 from strong groups and Top 1 (after 1 rd KO of top 2) in weak group to AI KO Last 12.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 13/12/2017 01:46:37    2065055

I like US NFL style 8 Div of 4.
Each of 4 dvs contain two Prov SFs (two Provs) is drawn after Prov QFs are played.
Other 4 Divs each contains a beaten team from both Uls and Lein QFs.
Each plays 12 match regular season - two other divs, own div, and one extra game.
Top2 from strong groups and Top 1 (after 1 rd KO of top 2) in weak group to AI KO Last 12.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 13/12/2017 01:48:06    2065056

I could go with a variation of my Antrim friend -
12-team Div 1 - 11 matches - 3rd to 8th join league finalists 1st 2nd in AI Last 12.
Two 10-team Div 2 Regions - North and South - 9 matches.
2nd to 5th in each play 2 inter region KO rds with 2 unbeaten joining 2 Div 2 finalists - top in each - as 4 promo teams and also in Last 12.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 13/12/2017 02:06:40    2065057

There has been no indication of provincial championships being separated from the All-Ireland series. There is also no indication of the league being combined with the championship. Solutions within the confines of those limitations are more realistic.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 13/12/2017 18:43:01    2065126

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 21/12/2017 02:47:21    2065740

We should not shoot down the Super 8 before it gets a chance - but one fact is this - as draws are more frequent in soccer, dead rubber risk is less than in the GAA. Accordingly, I think double chance should be preferable to round robin, although the latter works best when limited tp 3 teams.
Within 'current constraints'', keep the current AI SFC but with the following changes -

Each current Qual Rd 1 PAIR draws one Prov SF loser to form 8 groups of 3.
Top 2 in each group and 4 Prov Final losers go to 20-team Rd 2.
10 Rd 2 winners join 2 Prov Champs Playoff Rd losers in 12-team KO Rd 3.
6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in KO AI QFs.
Keeps Prov KO tradition - but the AI is now fair and balanced !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 24/12/2017 18:08:20    2065984

Giving 8 Prov Finalists a bye to following year Prov SFs would also bring symmetry - all needing three wins thru the Front Door - SF, Final and Playoff to AI QFs - a mouthering Playoff in place of a Prov QF.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 26/12/2017 19:26:05    2066022

I think limiting all Prov Championships - 4 in football and 2 in hurling - to 4 teams each (highest in NFL and NHL) - with KO SFs and Final only keeps the best of these games - everyone has a chance to qualify via the league - and is a fair compromise between those arguing for Prov abolition and those for no change.
This can then lead to a true national AIC blending ideas already mentioned.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 27/02/2018 13:58:25    2080929

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 27/02/2018 16:50:08    2080992

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 04/03/2018 02:12:01    2081782

It needs to happen. Most counties are just cannon fodder for the top 5 teams and that will never change

There should be at a minimum 3 competitions

All Ireland Championship
Championship 2 (Insert GAA great name here)
Championship 3 (.. and again)

Similar to a proper league structure - based on points with home and away games against each team.

Champion for each comp who finishes with the best stats as per the norm

Ultimate prize = Sam and the title AI Chanpions. Team that goes unbeaten to claim Div 1 = Grand AI Champions

Champion goes up from comp 2/3 with a fine piece of silverware having played highly entertaining games against teams of similar standard.

Team at bottom goes down from each comp.

We already have the perfect structure to put all this talk to bed. The wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.

We just rejigger the current league system a bit.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 04/03/2018 20:42:29    2081849