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Replying To carlovia: "Jobber, you remember when they tried to put our Christy ring final on Friday night in croke park.
Nothing has changed since then. 6 teams and only 1 escapes and laois,Westmeath and Carlow not allowed in their own provincial competition." Only too well.The top hurling counties need to stop paying lipservice to broadening the hurling world and blow this balloted out of the water.A Monaghan and Cavan led initiative on destroying hurling outside of the elite ten suits a lot of football people
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1445 - 06/09/2017 08:07:01
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Replying To as_ky: "Absolutely disgraceful treatment to Kerry, a Leinster side wins the Christy ring and they go straight into leinster but if Kerry win it the have to play a play off against the bottom Munster side. Basically consigning Kerry to tier 2 with no chance of progression. How is this developing the game" And Cork have put in a motion that no munster team can get relegated at all.
If this plan passes it confines those 6 teams to second class status for a decade.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 06/09/2017 09:27:20
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "The question I'd ask is, what problems are these changes seeking to address? The problems in inter-county hurling is that too few counties can compete at the top level. And the fewer counties involved, the less interest in inter-county hurling there is. So if changes are made, they should be addressing problems that need addressing.
For example, rather than demote the tier 2 teams, I'd actually like to see changes that revitalize the Ring competition and preserve tier 2 teams status. That could be done by combining the 'tier 2' and Ring championships. I know that sounds like a backward step initially, but I don't mean that as a demotion for tier 2 teams. More for an enlarged Ring 'super' competition (of the 4 'tier 2' teams and 8 Ring teams) to replace the current provincial round robin comp, with the top 2 Ring teams going on to play the 3rd place teams in Leinster and Munster, that same year.
It would:
- increase possible participation in the AI series from 10 teams, to 22 teams
- allow for the lower tier competitions to be played deeper into the summer, and finish at the same time as the provincial round robin series. Playing the Ring/Rackard/Meaghar finals at the same time as the provincial finals,is much better than what we have now.
- Give all existing Ring teams higher profile games against the 4 tier 2 counties, while still allowing the tier 2 counties to face off against each other (tier 2 teams would still have the same opportunity they currently do, just with extra games)
- As its not bound by provincial limits, with some thought and promotion, it could become a much more interesting competition than the provincial comps.
- after year 1, perhaps increase the number of teams playing in Leinster and Munster to 6 each, to better facilitate promotion/relegation thereafter (being realistic, ballydalane made a fair point related to that)
I'm sure there are holes that could be poked in the above idea, but the point is this is where improvement is needed. If the powers that be don't take a holistic approach to the hurling championships, they'll do more harm than good." A competition along those lines could be interesting.
The big problem here is the Provincial championships and trying to run those as groups with the same number of teams.
There's a way of keeping the Provincial championships as knockout, as part of the AI series, keep them made up of teams only from the traditional Provinces, Include Galway and any Ulster teams and have every team play more games.
Say we decide to have 12 teams (this is flexible)
5 Munster, 6 Leinster, Galway
Week 1 1 Munster QF, 2 Leinster QFs, 3 Interprovincial games involving 3 Munster, 2 Leinster bye teams and Galway.
Week 2 Munster, Leinster SFs plus 2 interprovincial games with 2 Leinster losing quarter finalists, plus Munster losing quarter finalist and Galway.
Week 3 Munster and Leinster final plus 4 interprovincial games. 3 Munster teams, 4 Leinster teams and Galway
Provincial series finished teams play another round of matches.
6 teams with the best record from 4 matches through to AI knockout rounds.
Some form of relegation decided.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 06/09/2017 10:14:03
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Replying To ballydalane: "It's an absolute joke. Say Kerry win tier one, does anyone seriously think for one nanosecond that Clare, or Limerick, or Waterford, hell it could be Cork or Tipp, are going to say "that's alright Jack" and quietly allow themselves be demoted from the following year's Munster championship? Never gonna happen in a million years." Thats why the GAA are only allowing 1 team to be promoted and
then praying kerry dont win it.
Complete nonsense.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 06/09/2017 10:27:59
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from a limerick point of view im in favour as we will be guaranteed 4 games and 2 home games ,
limerick gaa is competing for hearts and minds of young kids vis a vis rugby and soccer
2 championship games plus 5 league games (2/3 of which at home) compated to 28 munster games (10 in limerick)
or compare to 17/17 limerick fc games ---- kids getting more exposure to other sports -thankfully this years its been nullified by our our under 21 games
i think it would be better if your had two groups of 6 , 2 up 2 down - promoted team from tier 2 (should be tony keady cup) getting all games at home,
in a 5 team group the team whose bye week is the last round of matches at a disadvantage
janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 06/09/2017 10:28:44
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i think the home and away idea is good and we need mroe games, eps try and likes of cusack park, walsh park, wexford etc is better than playing in half empty thurles n croker.
My only concern is dead rubber games and teams knwoing that if they play a weakened side it might help them in reagards their final opponents?
Also, we are totally screwing likes of kerry, carlow, laois, antrim etc...they need something to play for not a nonsense tier 2 'cup' wasteland.
The Clare senior championship has a great new format now, with winners groups, back door for losers, then a senior b for eliminated teams and relegation playoffs for teams who lose 3 games in a row. Every game means something, no dead rubbers.
The long term aim should be a 16 team open draw with a backdoor as above. The provincials should be separate with perhaps a seeding advantage for the winners.
Clareman (Clare) - Posts: 1056 - 06/09/2017 11:02:46
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Replying To janesboro: "from a limerick point of view im in favour as we will be guaranteed 4 games and 2 home games ,
limerick gaa is competing for hearts and minds of young kids vis a vis rugby and soccer
2 championship games plus 5 league games (2/3 of which at home) compated to 28 munster games (10 in limerick)
or compare to 17/17 limerick fc games ---- kids getting more exposure to other sports -thankfully this years its been nullified by our our under 21 games
i think it would be better if your had two groups of 6 , 2 up 2 down - promoted team from tier 2 (should be tony keady cup) getting all games at home,
in a 5 team group the team whose bye week is the last round of matches at a disadvantage" Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
Kerry hurling is trying to establish itself as a top 12 county, we are doing that with a playing population practically restricted to 8 clubs in only 4 parishes in North Kerry. Around 4 years ago an underage club was started in Tralee and the hope is that they will in time become an adult club.
But there is huge competition in Tralee and elsewhere in Kerry from under age soccer and rugby is also expanding, never mind the huge shadow cast by Gaelic football in the Kingdom.
Now if you were one of the people working to try and expand the playing population of hurling by trying to get a foothold in Tralee etc why would you bother now, how are you going to convince kids to play for Kerry when you see proposals like this which are effectively 2 fingers to them??
As someone who comes from what is erroneously described as a 'non-traditional' hurling county, it seems to me that it is the same old story.
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/09/2017 11:10:16
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Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
correct me if i am wrong but Munster dont play matches in kerry so young kids are less likely to go to a game
biggest threat to hurling in kerry is football where kerry get lots of big glamour games
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
ciaran carey and mark foley went down to kerry and did very well
my suggestion has two groups of 6 - 2 up 2 down -which gives tier two counties the chance to get up and stay up
i also suggest the promoted tier 2 county gets all their games at home
janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 06/09/2017 11:29:04
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Replying To TheHermit: "Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
Kerry hurling is trying to establish itself as a top 12 county, we are doing that with a playing population practically restricted to 8 clubs in only 4 parishes in North Kerry. Around 4 years ago an underage club was started in Tralee and the hope is that they will in time become an adult club.
But there is huge competition in Tralee and elsewhere in Kerry from under age soccer and rugby is also expanding, never mind the huge shadow cast by Gaelic football in the Kingdom.
Now if you were one of the people working to try and expand the playing population of hurling by trying to get a foothold in Tralee etc why would you bother now, how are you going to convince kids to play for Kerry when you see proposals like this which are effectively 2 fingers to them??
As someone who comes from what is erroneously described as a 'non-traditional' hurling county, it seems to me that it is the same old story.
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves." So so right.
Why would any hurler from the "Tier 2 group" bother with this structure.
4 teams have just got demoted from the Leinster championship and Carlow that
won the christy ring may as well not have bothered.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 06/09/2017 16:25:16
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Replying To TheHermit: "Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
Kerry hurling is trying to establish itself as a top 12 county, we are doing that with a playing population practically restricted to 8 clubs in only 4 parishes in North Kerry. Around 4 years ago an underage club was started in Tralee and the hope is that they will in time become an adult club.
But there is huge competition in Tralee and elsewhere in Kerry from under age soccer and rugby is also expanding, never mind the huge shadow cast by Gaelic football in the Kingdom.
Now if you were one of the people working to try and expand the playing population of hurling by trying to get a foothold in Tralee etc why would you bother now, how are you going to convince kids to play for Kerry when you see proposals like this which are effectively 2 fingers to them??
As someone who comes from what is erroneously described as a 'non-traditional' hurling county, it seems to me that it is the same old story.
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves." "The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves."
I see your frustration but I don't think that sentiment is entirely fair. For example, clubs from Carlow, Laois and even Kildare (Naas) compete in various club competitions in Kilkenny. Now, the Kilkenny County Board didn't have to accommodate these clubs but in doing so it's exposing clubs from Carlow, Laois and Kildare to a more competitive level of hurling than they might otherwise get if they were confined to their own counties. I'm not sure how widespread this practice is across the country but thinking of Kerry's hurling heartland of north Kerry, how big a stretch would it be for them to compete in, say, Limerick's club competitions? Would Limerick be open to this?
Of for example, the hurling clubs in west Offaly, would they compete in Galway or Tipp? Would Galway or Tipp let them in?
I think amalgamations like this need to be seriously considered in order to keep hurling clubs in counties like Kerry and Offaly thriving - no point in the CCCC moving the deckchairs around on the inter-county championship if the clubs are dying.
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 06/09/2017 17:13:45
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I think the North Kerry Clubs should play in the limerick County Championship. That would raise standards for sure. Iv always said Kerry hurlers have it tough but Limerick is unique in that there's huge traditional rugby clubs and obvious well worn routes to professionalism. Rugby has only become popular outside of South Dublin, Limerick and Posh parts of Cork city the last 20 years.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 06/09/2017 18:12:53
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Lads, I appreciate your thoughts but I think you are in danger of mixing up two separate things i.e. club and county.
The Kerry county hurling championship is a very big deal where I come from. There is huge rivalry there and it brings with it a lot of passion and colour. The standard is decent and the games well supported. The County Champions then go on to compete in the Munster Intermediate club championship, though admittedly we don't have a brilliant record (although Kilmoyley got to the final last year). However, I think a lot of that is down to the county title being the end in itself and not necessarily being seen as a platform to provincial honours.
The Kerry hurlers have shown in the last few years that if we get the right people on board, who can overcome the intense club rivalry and get everyone pulling in the same direction Kerry can compete at a pretty high level and have shown they can improve more. So in that sense I wouldn't be too worried about the standard of our club game at all, it is producing good quality players.
What we need to be discussing is the inter-county system. Why would a young hurler in Kerry now put in the huge time and commitment needed to be part of a modern inter-county set-up if Kerry are going to be left in perpetual limbo once these proposals get through. What is in it for them?
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 06/09/2017 18:35:58
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Replying To TheHermit: "Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
Kerry hurling is trying to establish itself as a top 12 county, we are doing that with a playing population practically restricted to 8 clubs in only 4 parishes in North Kerry. Around 4 years ago an underage club was started in Tralee and the hope is that they will in time become an adult club.
But there is huge competition in Tralee and elsewhere in Kerry from under age soccer and rugby is also expanding, never mind the huge shadow cast by Gaelic football in the Kingdom.
Now if you were one of the people working to try and expand the playing population of hurling by trying to get a foothold in Tralee etc why would you bother now, how are you going to convince kids to play for Kerry when you see proposals like this which are effectively 2 fingers to them??
As someone who comes from what is erroneously described as a 'non-traditional' hurling county, it seems to me that it is the same old story.
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves." Fully agree with you,if this happens I give up on inter county hurling and will stick to just supporting my local club,but I have a funny feeling that the gaa hope this motion fails and they can turn around say they tried to change but the counties stop them and just go back to promote their super 8 football,
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 775 - 06/09/2017 18:53:55
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Replying To janesboro: "Janesboro, every county is competing for the hearts and minds of young kids whether its hurling, Gaelic football, soccer or rugby.
correct me if i am wrong but Munster dont play matches in kerry so young kids are less likely to go to a game
biggest threat to hurling in kerry is football where kerry get lots of big glamour games
The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
ciaran carey and mark foley went down to kerry and did very well
my suggestion has two groups of 6 - 2 up 2 down -which gives tier two counties the chance to get up and stay up
i also suggest the promoted tier 2 county gets all their games at home" I'm a Limerick man and that will not promote hurling in Limerick, hurling is dying in Limerick city,the three city clubs are joined up to U21 in all hurling ages,Munster council and Limerick board need to get coaches and money in to help Limerick,
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 775 - 06/09/2017 18:58:01
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The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:3003 - 06/09/2017 11:10:16
That's a nonsense statement. This change has nothing to do with "hurling people" anywhere. If anything, its likely to facilitate the soon to be expanded inter-county football schedule, by reducing possible fixture congestion for most counties, as most counties are primarily concerned with football. Sad but true. Its why the Ring/Rackard/Meagher cups are played off by June every year.
But you know what, lets see how the vote goes. The hurling counties you mentioned are a small minority. So if the majority of counties are against these changes, and genuinly concerned with supporting their own hurlers, the changes won't be passed. However, if most counties want to get their own hurling commitments out of the way earlier, so they can focus on their footballers, then we'll get what we usually get.
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 07/09/2017 00:04:28
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Replying To Whammo86: "A competition along those lines could be interesting.
The big problem here is the Provincial championships and trying to run those as groups with the same number of teams.
There's a way of keeping the Provincial championships as knockout, as part of the AI series, keep them made up of teams only from the traditional Provinces, Include Galway and any Ulster teams and have every team play more games.
Say we decide to have 12 teams (this is flexible)
5 Munster, 6 Leinster, Galway
Week 1 1 Munster QF, 2 Leinster QFs, 3 Interprovincial games involving 3 Munster, 2 Leinster bye teams and Galway.
Week 2 Munster, Leinster SFs plus 2 interprovincial games with 2 Leinster losing quarter finalists, plus Munster losing quarter finalist and Galway.
Week 3 Munster and Leinster final plus 4 interprovincial games. 3 Munster teams, 4 Leinster teams and Galway
Provincial series finished teams play another round of matches.
6 teams with the best record from 4 matches through to AI knockout rounds.
Some form of relegation decided." That kinda looks familiar :)
How do you decide the inter-prov pairings ?
Build the groups based on unfolding prov championships ? :)
I had a 'wild card' element as well - but upon reflection, it may give teams that play Offaly or weaker an unfair advantage - perhaps we could use the 'best 2nd places' idea from soccer - best record means v 1st, 3rd and 4th only.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 07/09/2017 02:22:11
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:3003 - 06/09/2017 11:10:16
That's a nonsense statement. This change has nothing to do with "hurling people" anywhere. If anything, its likely to facilitate the soon to be expanded inter-county football schedule, by reducing possible fixture congestion for most counties, as most counties are primarily concerned with football. Sad but true. Its why the Ring/Rackard/Meagher cups are played off by June every year.
But you know what, lets see how the vote goes. The hurling counties you mentioned are a small minority. So if the majority of counties are against these changes, and genuinly concerned with supporting their own hurlers, the changes won't be passed. However, if most counties want to get their own hurling commitments out of the way earlier, so they can focus on their footballers, then we'll get what we usually get." If Tipperary or Cork had any interest in promoting hurling outside the current elite they would not have produced their proposals which effectively make hurling a super 10 forever and ban Kerry for ever from Munster.At least the Ccc have allowed an Offaly/Laois/Meath amendment the possibility of passing which gives the tier two finalists a preliminary All Ireland quarter final vs the third teams in both provinces.Kilkenny to give them their due are always helpful with the likes of Westmeath about playing in Mullingar even after we beat them in last year's under 21 something Tipp couldn't manage to see this year.
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1445 - 07/09/2017 07:32:09
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I'm a Limerick man and that will not promote hurling in Limerick, hurling is dying in Limerick city,the three city clubs are joined up to U21 in all hurling ages,Munster council and Limerick board need to get coaches and money in to help Limerick,
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:203 - 06/09/2017 18:58:01 2043569
it would help limerick hurling as we would be guaranteed 4 games with 2 at home, - other than that you are 100% correct re the game in limerick city,
janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 07/09/2017 09:45:38
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Replying To jobber: " Replying To Marlon_JD: "The hurling people of Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Clare, Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Waterford like to wring their hands and cry out publicly that its a crying shame we can't get more counties interested in our great game.
But in private, your all perfectly content to keep the game a niche sport between yourselves.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:3003 - 06/09/2017 11:10:16
That's a nonsense statement. This change has nothing to do with "hurling people" anywhere. If anything, its likely to facilitate the soon to be expanded inter-county football schedule, by reducing possible fixture congestion for most counties, as most counties are primarily concerned with football. Sad but true. Its why the Ring/Rackard/Meagher cups are played off by June every year.
But you know what, lets see how the vote goes. The hurling counties you mentioned are a small minority. So if the majority of counties are against these changes, and genuinly concerned with supporting their own hurlers, the changes won't be passed. However, if most counties want to get their own hurling commitments out of the way earlier, so they can focus on their footballers, then we'll get what we usually get." If Tipperary or Cork had any interest in promoting hurling outside the current elite they would not have produced their proposals which effectively make hurling a super 10 forever and ban Kerry for ever from Munster.At least the Ccc have allowed an Offaly/Laois/Meath amendment the possibility of passing which gives the tier two finalists a preliminary All Ireland quarter final vs the third teams in both provinces.Kilkenny to give them their due are always helpful with the likes of Westmeath about playing in Mullingar even after we beat them in last year's under 21 something Tipp couldn't manage to see this year."
You'd swear they'd be worried Kerry might one day be able to compete with them, please God I live to see a Kerry hurling team that is a genuine contender in the Munster championship.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 07/09/2017 09:47:58
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Replying To omahant: "That kinda looks familiar :)
How do you decide the inter-prov pairings ?
Build the groups based on unfolding prov championships ? :)
I had a 'wild card' element as well - but upon reflection, it may give teams that play Offaly or weaker an unfair advantage - perhaps we could use the 'best 2nd places' idea from soccer - best record means v 1st, 3rd and 4th only." No just draw them each round.
If you don't have Provincial championship in a round you still play.
Play each round over 2 weeks.
It's a bit more flexible than what you were suggesting. Teams not playing in the Provincial championship quarterfinals still play during that round of fixtures, there's no need to wait around to create the groups.
You can be flexible with the number of teams entering the tournament, just needs to be an even number.
Ulster teams and Galway don't need to be part of a Province.
You can be flexible with the number of games that get played.
How many teams get eliminated at each stage.
It's a single table tournament. So there's luck of the draw in who you get but that's the case already.
If I were running hurling I'd allow 16 teams to have 3 games each.
10 teams play a 4th match.
Down to a top 6 knockout series.
I'd have a relegation playoff for the bottom 4 teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 07/09/2017 10:24:27
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