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felt was quite a decent article myself.....they ultimately didnt close the game out like it or not
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 19/09/2017 23:54:27 2048383 Link 1 |
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one of the stranger things i do see is the hatred/begrudgery people have for him considering what he achieved...dont quite understand it myself
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 19/09/2017 23:55:24 2048384 Link 0 |
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There is a difference between having a hatred for someone and finding it objectionable for a man to criticise an intercounry manager for making tactical decisions after only watching a game on tv. Everyone knows only a fraction of the game can be understood when watching modern gaelic football on tv. Had Mayo sat back in the last 10 minutes people would say they lost their nerve by stopping doing what had been successful for the first 60 minutes. Monaghan and Tyrone both sat back against Dublin this year and it wasn't a great tactical success. Jimmy is the only manager to have beaten Gavins Dublin but also the only manager to get tactically out-thought by Fitzmaurice in a big championship game - trying to pin this loss on the decisions of Mayo management is a cheap shot.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 20/09/2017 08:02:51 2048407 Link 0 |
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Yeah that's where I'm coming from. I have zero hatred for the man. I respect him a great deal. His success with Donegal. His work in soccer, Roger Schmidt his boss in China is a very impressive coach who'll likely manage a really top 10 European club some day which is impressive. I really don't think I show any bitterness on here at all particularly. I didn't like his article. I think there's also a bit of a mystique about him where there's not much criticism of what he says. This piece is just a lazy. Yes they didn't close out the game but would trying to be defensive actually have helped them. I really don't think so, I really don't think it was there best chance. You can't sit back on this Dublin team for over 10 minutes to retain a 2 point lead. How do you organise your team mid game to do that. How does everyone know what jobs to do? How are they going to execute that game plan when their team is absolutely spent. Tyrone couldn't defend the 45 vs Dublin and it's a game plan they've been working on for 2 years now. There's no way of knowing but had Mayo tried that and lost you can bet there'd be similar articles bemoaning their lack of adventure. They failed to win, that doesn't mean they didn't give themselves their best chance to do so. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 20/09/2017 10:04:00 2048439 Link 0 |
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You make some fair points in that but surely a team the quality of Mayo should be capable of a mid game tactical adjustment? I think what Jim couldn't believe is how easy Dublin got in for their 2 points to level the game up after Mayo had taken a 2 point lead with less that 10 mins of normal time remaining. Dublin would of got everyone behind the ball if it had been the other way round to make sure a Mayo player would at best get a shot under pressure and found ways to slow the game down like they did after Rock's winning score. Mayo didn't change anything. In the build up to the game I heard David Brady make a point, in one of the hundred build up programmes he was on, that it was important that Mayo slowed Dublin down if they got ahead. He even said that the Mayo forwards should take turns taking yellow cards for kicking the ball off the tee to stop Cluxton's quick restarts. I believe this is the sort of stuff that was needed in those last 10 mins. Winning by any means necessary. I remember Barry John Keane doing this to Paul Durcan in 2014 just after he came on as a sub. It's the first thing Conor Loftus should of done when he came on for Andy Moran. Just look what Dublin did after Rock's point. Clarke's tee was thrown away and at least 4 Dublin players dragged Mayo players to the ground. If you don't think this is something that Dublin hadn't planned for then your very naive. Obviously Mayo didn't.
Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 20/09/2017 16:12:48 2048629 Link 1 |
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There's a big difference in doing it with time nearly up compared to doing it with over 10 minutes to play. I'm not on the wind up here but looking back on last years Ulster final Donegal didn't close out a game that they were in control of. There's pitfalls to trying it. My big problem is that you're inviting Dublin into their comfort zone. They are used to playing against massed defence at this stage. They thrive on it. I think it would've been a real pick off job. Again you can look back at last year and how Kerry tried to play on the counter in the semifinal and it didn't work. I kind of expect better from his articles and recently they've been a bit tired seeming, going over very familiar ground and something any old hack could write. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 20/09/2017 16:37:11 2048645 Link 0 |
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Winning by any means necessary means there is no game left. Look up the definition of a game It has to have rules and a boundary to behaviour Total cynicism is destroying gaelic football and so it is no longer a game just a riot with a balloon somewhere in the middle of it driven by a media circus worse than Nero's collosseum. cjx (Tyrone) - Posts: 270 - 20/09/2017 17:05:50 2048662 Link 1 |
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so hes not allowed to offer his opinion?..you dont seem to take much issue with others doing the same....you would swear mcguinness is somebody who has never managed a team at a good level like the lads on rte..hes a lot more qualified to offer his opinion..they didnt close the game out...you have to question the substitutions they made
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 23/09/2017 19:51:41 2049692 Link 1 |
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dont see it as lazy at all..they didnt close the game out..the substitutions ultimately didnt work..mystique..the lad is constantly having shots taken against him for years especially by people on here who constantly begrudge what he achieved and try to play it down...what have you offered to counter his points?..last sunday i saw one team close the game out and another who failed to do so....the fact is we were able to come back and get those 2 scores a lot easier than we should have..my respect for that mayo team has grown and grown but thats what happened
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 23/09/2017 19:57:05 2049697 Link 1 |
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seem like another person who likes to take cheap shots at the guy..letting your mask slip there of course..the guy is paid to offer his opinion..i dont see what the issue is there...i dont see you questioning rte pundits points when they make personal attacks year after year on coaches and players while watching games on tv
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 23/09/2017 19:58:32 2049698 Link 1 |
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I gave reasons to why I disagree with him. I'm not going to repeat them, they are there for you to read if you can be bothered. I disagree with the opinion he's stated in an article. I'm not taking a shot at him. It's weird how serious you take a criticism of him. You do know that this is a GAA forum where we discuss the game and things related to the game. That's all I was doing here, discussing a GAA article, nothing personal to Jim McGuinness. All he had was an opinion I disagree with, like every single other person in the world. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 24/09/2017 08:29:24 2049802 Link 0 |
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McGuinness has an opinion, same as everyone else, who always end up talking about himself. With his home county he won an AI with some very experienced players- he's living on that since. Dublin threw that game away missing two easy goal chances when 6-7 points up in the first half. Mayo are much better team and have yet to win an AI playing as they are playing against a much better Dublin team. McGuinness though was clever enough to get out as he knew his experiment and luck had run out. browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 24/09/2017 09:37:01 2049817 Link 0 |
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Have you ever watched his teams play, read his book or listened to him talking football. He thinks about everything to the finest detail (stuff we cant even comprehend) and prepares his team to the best they can be (sometimes that's not enough). I firmly believe he is the best manager I have ever seen. I think his achievements since that All Ireland prove you wrong. He went from being a psychologist with Celtic underage team to a coach with their reserves and psychologist with the main team. He is now number 2 for a very good manager in China (earning a fortune). If he keeps improving I firmly believe he will be a manager in England. Dublin are an unreal team and of course luck has its part to play but he did find their 1 weakness. No other manager had figured them out and none have since they adjusted after that defeat. dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 24/09/2017 10:27:11 2049826 Link 1 |
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What about the I weakness that he did not find the next year when a kick out was directed 20m straight to big Donaghy who was directly in front of goals and we all know the result of that- that was something that you teach 10 year olds not to do. Now I'm not sure if it is in any book though! Was he responsible for Dublin missing two easy goal chances- I think not.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 24/09/2017 13:15:17 2049863 Link 0 |
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well if his keeper is making one blunder all year and a team like Dublin can create goal chances against you then Jim should have been sacked before he resigned.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 24/09/2017 14:09:11 2049875 Link 0 |
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I have to take issue with this fallacy that Dublin missed two "easy" goal chances in that game. In the first one the pass in was hit behind the forward who had a defender all over him & in the second the keeper made a save which is what goalkeepers do. The failure here was that the forwasrds concerned took the wrong option in going for goal in the first place when easy points were on offer. Dublin were well on top at that stage of the game & all they had to do was keep the scoreboard ticking & keep building momentum. In contrast McFadden had a half goal chance in the second half immediatley after McHugh's second goal & he made the right decision in calmly fisting the ball over the bar keeping the momentum going. Games swing on decisions like these, the Dublin players made the wrong decision & McFadden made the right one. MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 24/09/2017 14:50:19 2049888 Link 1 |
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Exactly. Can anyone who says that Jim's article is "rubbish" enlighten us which of his main points are "rubbish"? Thought it was a sensible article as usual.
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 24/09/2017 15:53:33 2049901 Link 1 |
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You do realise the goalie messed up?
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 24/09/2017 15:57:31 2049902 Link 0 |
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Ok I have already but I'll summarise quickly here. I agree that Mayo didn't close out the game, that is indisputable, they lost. Just because a team loses doesn't mean that they didn't give themselves the best chance to win. Jim is saying that they didn't give themselves the best chance to win. I disagree with that, or at least disagree with what he considers would have given them a better chance. He advocates that they should have packed the defence and played on the counter from the 63rd minute. You'd expect at least 4 minutes of added time to be played, so Jim is advocating trying to hold on to a 2 point lead for at least 11 minutes against probably the best collection of attackers to have ever played the game. Playing a counter attacking game against Dublin now has pretty much been proven to be a terrible strategy. You just have to look at Tyrone and Monaghan and how easily they were swatted aside by Dublin. You cannot counterattack against them, their defence is too well organised to deal with that strategy right now. Tyrone are the masters of the counter attack right now and they just couldn't dent Dublin whatsoever in the semifinal. Granted Tyrone didn't perform very well but they also weren't allowed to perform. He's comparing Dublin closing out a game with a 1 point lead with the indicated added time already played to being 2 points up with 63 minutes played. That's just not the even close to being the same scenario. Dublin likely have 1 Mayo possession to deal with. There's still plenty of football to be played with a minimum of 11 minutes to go. Some of the Dublin scores were easy. That being said Lee Keegan's goal was sloppy enough from Dublin also, they had a 2 point lead at that time and were coasting, don't concede a goal and they probably run out comfortable winners. At the top level it is just difficult to keep it tight at times, you're playing against top players who are capable of working opening. The article doesn't consider the practicalities of trying to change system midmatch and how difficult it is to completely reorganise a team. Had Mayo tried to close the game out and lost you'd have had people argued then that they were stupid trying to do so. In my opinion they would have been. They would have let Dublin move back into their number 1 game plan. Alex Ferguson wrote that he always loved when opposition teams took a forward off against them win in front as they handed the initiative to them. That's what Mayo would have done had the changed tactics at that point. He questions taking Andy Moran off. Andy Moran was absolutely wrecked. The overarching theme of the piece is that Mayo lost that match rather than double winning it. That's just not the case in my opinion. Mayo asked every question they could of Dublin, who at the end of the day were just a little bit better. Fine margins. At the end of the day Dublin had a bench that was vastly superior to what Mayo had and everyone knew that Dublin were always going to finish a game strongly. Dublin had a free taker who when the pressure was on executed in a way that Mayo's free taker couldn't. Mayo don't have themselves to blame. They simply were just not as good as Dublin in the end. I felt the piece was lazy because similar things have been written about this Mayo teams other narrow defeats. I'd have expected something a little bit less worn out from McGuinness. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 24/09/2017 17:17:19 2049915 Link 2 |
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The problem is the gaa dosent have enough money to bring others up to Dublins level. Hence why they shouldn't be giving Dublin 90% of the funds in the first place. Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 24/09/2017 18:55:13 2049969 Link 0 |