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Should James Owens be sanctioned?

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Replying To Mayonman:  "Accepted that it was easy for him to make a genuine mistake in real time. No issue there.

But when he was presented with the footage to say he was happy with his decision??? That is when he had the opportunity to say he did not see all the detail (fingers gripping the guard and pulling etc). Because if he did see it at the time why was it not dealt with. You cannot have it both ways. He either did or he didn't see it.

This is about more than Austin Gleeson."
Yes he is allowed to review footage of the game and based on what RTE are now saying it seems that he saw it as an accident during the game and once he saw it again didn't change his view. CCCC is powerless but was made that way by Congress who didn't pass the motion to allow the CCCC to investigate regardless of what the ref decided. It would be a bit like rugby - as in rugby it still wouldn't guarantee everyone is happy with the result!
Unfortunately there are not a lot of top hurling referees so will be interesting to see what happens to his IC career.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 16/08/2017 17:21:51    2034350

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "The CCCC claim that they are very upset with Owens but I don't believe it - I bet they are mightily relieved that he let them off the hook. He was placed in a horrible position. He knew that if he admitted that he did not see the incident or that he was not satisfied with how he handled it, then Gleeson would miss out on the all-Ireland final and that is an unfair burden to place on a ref. It is absolutely ridiculous that the ref gets to decide whether or not he was "happy with his performance". It should be entirely up to the committee to adjudicate on video evidence."
Totally correct. They are hanging him out to dry. Saved their arses. Gleeson could never have been suspended after how the reached the decision on Tuohy what ever the merits of either case.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2658 - 16/08/2017 17:30:08    2034355

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I was watching the Scannal programme yesterday evening on the Meath v Louth debacle of 2010. Joe Sheridan was involved in the incident but had no control over the outcome e.g. the response of the Meath County Board etc. He received hate mail and death threats.

Imagine you were James Owens, you'd like to live the rest of your life in relative peace and security and you'd be thinking of your family too. If he was responsible for banning Austin Gleeson he would have a very difficult time ahead. This is no reflection on Waterford people but all our counties would have an element who would crucify an official in a position like this.

Jimmy Cooney is remembered as the man who blew up the all-ire semi first replay between Offaly and Clare 5 min early in 1998 to this day. Imagine Owens being labelled the man who single handedly denied Austin Gleeson a chance to play in, maybe, his only ever senior hurling final.

One man should never have to bear full responsibility for such decision making, it should be taken out of his hands into a panel like the CCCC.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 16/08/2017 17:41:13    2034362

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Replying To Canuck:  "Every time a player pulls on the ball around other players heads or legs constitutes a danger. What about the shot in the testicles to Moran who was actually injured rather than speculation to what could have happened to the Cork player ? Your famous Tommy was the expert on helmet interference as he perfected it."
That is some statement to say Tommy perfected the art of helmet interference,was he ever sent off for a helmet offence? because thats what is at issue here, you continually brought up other fouls that happened during the match which have nothing to do with Gleesons stupidity,and I still say that the photo on the homepage proves that grabbing the helmet like Gleeson did is dangerous,I would not defend any player who gets a red card for it,also,how can a ref decide if its intentional or not,simply put a player should not put his hand anywhere near an opponents helmet,then there would be no need to debate the rule

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 533 - 16/08/2017 18:12:53    2034374

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Replying To Laois76:  "I was watching the Scannal programme yesterday evening on the Meath v Louth debacle of 2010. Joe Sheridan was involved in the incident but had no control over the outcome e.g. the response of the Meath County Board etc. He received hate mail and death threats.

Imagine you were James Owens, you'd like to live the rest of your life in relative peace and security and you'd be thinking of your family too. If he was responsible for banning Austin Gleeson he would have a very difficult time ahead. This is no reflection on Waterford people but all our counties would have an element who would crucify an official in a position like this.

Jimmy Cooney is remembered as the man who blew up the all-ire semi first replay between Offaly and Clare 5 min early in 1998 to this day. Imagine Owens being labelled the man who single handedly denied Austin Gleeson a chance to play in, maybe, his only ever senior hurling final.

One man should never have to bear full responsibility for such decision making, it should be taken out of his hands into a panel like the CCCC."
Yes I agree.Owens found himself in a very difficult position yesterday.The criticism of him is over the top.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2160 - 16/08/2017 18:31:41    2034384

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Replying To endgame:  "Yes I agree.Owens found himself in a very difficult position yesterday.The criticism of him is over the top."
True endgame.

If he dealt with it in the game that would be proper and fair and i don't think the most vocal of supporter could complain.

But come on, who would have the courage to revisit it in your match report after?? Easy say so from behind a keyboard.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 16/08/2017 18:49:06    2034397

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Pressure on James Owens was massive, it would have been a huge call to deprive the current hurler of the year a part in the blue ribbon event of Irish sport. Had he allowed the cccc to review the game the cup would be galways. Having said that if was Diarmuid Connolly I would be really peeved

totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 916 - 16/08/2017 19:07:10    2034401

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Replying To Laois76:  "I was watching the Scannal programme yesterday evening on the Meath v Louth debacle of 2010. Joe Sheridan was involved in the incident but had no control over the outcome e.g. the response of the Meath County Board etc. He received hate mail and death threats.

Imagine you were James Owens, you'd like to live the rest of your life in relative peace and security and you'd be thinking of your family too. If he was responsible for banning Austin Gleeson he would have a very difficult time ahead. This is no reflection on Waterford people but all our counties would have an element who would crucify an official in a position like this.

Jimmy Cooney is remembered as the man who blew up the all-ire semi first replay between Offaly and Clare 5 min early in 1998 to this day. Imagine Owens being labelled the man who single handedly denied Austin Gleeson a chance to play in, maybe, his only ever senior hurling final.

One man should never have to bear full responsibility for such decision making, it should be taken out of his hands into a panel like the CCCC."
You are not comparing like with like. Jimmy Cooney did what he did on the field of play. He did it in the heat of the battle. He was then hurriedly guided off the field by a security man. James Owens situation is entirely different. He has said he was happy with how he dealt with the incident. He as Ina position to arrive at that decision off the field of play in a quiet environment. He may or may not have reviewed the incident using video footage before arriving at his decision. We are not privy to that and therefore we are not n a position to make an informed comment . What cannot be denied is that James Owens is the individual who, by declaring himself satisfied with how he dealt with the incident in question has decided that Austin Gleeson will play in the final. Anyone who says James Owens would have been responsible for Austin Gleeson missing the final had he decided to refer the incident to The CCCC is wrong. The decision as to whether Austin Gleeson would or would not play in the final would have rested with The CCCC. James Owens did not have to bring it upon himself to make a declaration that is on the basis of the video evidence highly questionable to say the least.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/08/2017 19:29:07    2034409

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Replying To mooncat:  "That is some statement to say Tommy perfected the art of helmet interference,was he ever sent off for a helmet offence? because thats what is at issue here, you continually brought up other fouls that happened during the match which have nothing to do with Gleesons stupidity,and I still say that the photo on the homepage proves that grabbing the helmet like Gleeson did is dangerous,I would not defend any player who gets a red card for it,also,how can a ref decide if its intentional or not,simply put a player should not put his hand anywhere near an opponents helmet,then there would be no need to debate the rule"
Glad you mentioned that photo but how about the caption that specifically mentions Gleeson. No reference to Tuohy. Should it not say Gleeson/Tuohygate. BIAS HERE singling out one player for two similar infractions.

I have said already I would have no pity on Gleeson if he had been sent off.
Here is my summation again:
1.Bennett deserved his suspension ( though a certain pundit made sure to drive it home)
2. Tuohy got away with one.
3. Gleeson got away with one that looked worse than Tuohy's but the same sanction required. (the Cork player behaved like a hurler)
4. Tadgh DeBurca was unfairly suspended because of the soccer style antics of Kehoe. So he went to speak for him to cover his shame.

What is annoying is people saying that Cork would be in the All-Ireland if Gleeson was sent off. The same could be said for DeBurca if Waterford lost. In fact most of the pundits predicted they could not win without him. They dealt with it and won. There is nothing to say they would not have dealt also if Gleeson had been sent off just because Cork did not. Also on another day it is Waterford would have the advantage as the strike on Moran could have been red carded if you had a linesman like DeBurca had. Using any of these events is using a crutch for been beating. Cody, Kingston, McGrath, Ryan etc will not use them. Just posters and pundits who need something to say to earn a few bob.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2658 - 16/08/2017 19:41:25    2034413

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Replying To Greengrass:  "You are not comparing like with like. Jimmy Cooney did what he did on the field of play. He did it in the heat of the battle. He was then hurriedly guided off the field by a security man. James Owens situation is entirely different. He has said he was happy with how he dealt with the incident. He as Ina position to arrive at that decision off the field of play in a quiet environment. He may or may not have reviewed the incident using video footage before arriving at his decision. We are not privy to that and therefore we are not n a position to make an informed comment . What cannot be denied is that James Owens is the individual who, by declaring himself satisfied with how he dealt with the incident in question has decided that Austin Gleeson will play in the final. Anyone who says James Owens would have been responsible for Austin Gleeson missing the final had he decided to refer the incident to The CCCC is wrong. The decision as to whether Austin Gleeson would or would not play in the final would have rested with The CCCC. James Owens did not have to bring it upon himself to make a declaration that is on the basis of the video evidence highly questionable to say the least."
I understand Greengrass. But Jimmy Cooney's was in the heat of a match and look at the hassle he got after.

If Owens said he wasn't satisfied with how he dealt with the situation and let the CCCC judge he would be pilloried as he had the power to allow Austin Gleeson play in the final by saying he was happy with his job.

He'd be first in the firing line, not the CCCC. So really the CCCC should have the power to overrule referees regardless of what they say about the how they felt they did their job.

A referee saying 'i think i handled that match well' is akin to a police force investigating police corruption. By that statement i'm talking about policing all over the world and not referencing anything irish or ongoing.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 16/08/2017 19:46:14    2034414

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Replying To Gaillimh_Abu:  "The CCCC claim that they are very upset with Owens but I don't believe it - I bet they are mightily relieved that he let them off the hook. He was placed in a horrible position. He knew that if he admitted that he did not see the incident or that he was not satisfied with how he handled it, then Gleeson would miss out on the all-Ireland final and that is an unfair burden to place on a ref. It is absolutely ridiculous that the ref gets to decide whether or not he was "happy with his performance". It should be entirely up to the committee to adjudicate on video evidence."
Are you saying Gaillimh, that after reviewing the incident, James Owens was certain in his mind that were he to refer the incident to The CCCC Austin Gleeson would have missed the final ? If that is what you are saying the inference is that James Owens saw evidence of blatant foul play and chose to ignore that it. You are saying that James Owens chose to ignore the rules and brought it upon himself to illegally clear Austin Gleeson to play. Given that James Owens is a referee and is responsible for upholding and implementing the rules that is a very serious charge to make.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 16/08/2017 19:47:34    2034416

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Replying To Laois76:  "I was watching the Scannal programme yesterday evening on the Meath v Louth debacle of 2010. Joe Sheridan was involved in the incident but had no control over the outcome e.g. the response of the Meath County Board etc. He received hate mail and death threats.

Imagine you were James Owens, you'd like to live the rest of your life in relative peace and security and you'd be thinking of your family too. If he was responsible for banning Austin Gleeson he would have a very difficult time ahead. This is no reflection on Waterford people but all our counties would have an element who would crucify an official in a position like this.

Jimmy Cooney is remembered as the man who blew up the all-ire semi first replay between Offaly and Clare 5 min early in 1998 to this day. Imagine Owens being labelled the man who single handedly denied Austin Gleeson a chance to play in, maybe, his only ever senior hurling final.

One man should never have to bear full responsibility for such decision making, it should be taken out of his hands into a panel like the CCCC."
So, scrap cards and the rule book because we can't have refs making decisions that might mean a player missing a game (particulatly if it's an important game) through suspension - is that what you are advocating?

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 16/08/2017 19:54:37    2034420

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Just a question would any one be in favour of the god forbid me rule of linesmen having the power like in soccer to call a free? ive no doubt this would help the referee to deal with issues on the day. Ive been to and seen the amount of abuse linesmen get at games but they are powerless to do anything unless the referee misses the incident, also it with cut out any of these appeal after appeal issues that have gone on recently and also lesson the load of the referee which in turn would improve the referees performance. At the end of the day i think it would lead to better performances and also lead to a bit of consistency with overall performance ?

mrsme (USA) - Posts: 172 - 16/08/2017 19:57:48    2034424

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Replying To neverright:  "So, scrap cards and the rule book because we can't have refs making decisions that might mean a player missing a game (particulatly if it's an important game) through suspension - is that what you are advocating?"
No. But in cases like this a referee who doesn't deal with a situation in a game is under tremendous pressure to let players play in a final. Should it be left to him alone to review his decision?

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 16/08/2017 20:27:29    2034436

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Replying To mrsme:  "Just a question would any one be in favour of the god forbid me rule of linesmen having the power like in soccer to call a free? ive no doubt this would help the referee to deal with issues on the day. Ive been to and seen the amount of abuse linesmen get at games but they are powerless to do anything unless the referee misses the incident, also it with cut out any of these appeal after appeal issues that have gone on recently and also lesson the load of the referee which in turn would improve the referees performance. At the end of the day i think it would lead to better performances and also lead to a bit of consistency with overall performance ?"
We cant be having more than 1 scapegoat now...

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 16/08/2017 20:52:50    2034446

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Replying To Pinkie:  "We cant be having more than 1 scapegoat now..."
not looking for a scapegoat just trying to find a way to lesson the load for the referee and make things more constitute have the same ref with the same linesmen for a year bet everything would improve it would also make it harder for refs to get on the championship panel so again improved performance all a round. Refs are assessed after every game but not the support panel ie linesmen

mrsme (USA) - Posts: 172 - 16/08/2017 21:17:52    2034467

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This thread title keeps changing?

Firstly poor James was to be suspended, from where or what id on't know. Now it's advocated that he should be 'sanctioned'. I suppose their will be calls for him to be sectioned next..

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 16/08/2017 21:19:49    2034469

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Replying To mrsme:  "Just a question would any one be in favour of the god forbid me rule of linesmen having the power like in soccer to call a free? ive no doubt this would help the referee to deal with issues on the day. Ive been to and seen the amount of abuse linesmen get at games but they are powerless to do anything unless the referee misses the incident, also it with cut out any of these appeal after appeal issues that have gone on recently and also lesson the load of the referee which in turn would improve the referees performance. At the end of the day i think it would lead to better performances and also lead to a bit of consistency with overall performance ?"
Two competent refs on the field. No knee jerk reactions red cards, review there and then. The review room could have called down there and then on Austin. Refs and review room review quickly look at the play and take any action if required. I know the complaint of play delay but what is the alternative wrong calls and controversy. What is average of players red carded in a season let alone a game? Games 30 minutes with time clock and only running when the ball is in play.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2658 - 16/08/2017 21:21:08    2034472

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lads and ladies ye,re missing the point surely its time to help the referee can ye not agree on that for once would hate to be james owens tonight no decision like this should be left to him yes he does referee for a minimal fee and yes he does do it for the love of the game i do referee but not at as such of a high standard but at the end of the day without us pesky men/women in black nothing happens things happens in games and i know im going to get players training since janruary but they should not put themselves in this position

mrsme (USA) - Posts: 172 - 16/08/2017 21:42:33    2034479

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Spot on, if he saw it & implemented the rule Cork would have been playing v 14 from early on. The fact that he saw it & didn't act shows he is not up to the standard & after tonight's decision, nor are the CCCC."
If anybody had seen Cahalane's dirty pull across AG early in the first half and he (Cahalane) had been yellow carded then, as he should have been, he would have been sent off earlier., so the 14 man thing works both ways.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4318 - 16/08/2017 21:53:16    2034483

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